Bottom paint application cost!!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

. . . From the business standpoint, the only way to undercut one's competitors is to cut costs (corners) or margin. Cutting corners generally means poorer results for the customer; cutting margin reduces profitability and sustainability for the business..

It is certainly true that in the longer run, you shouldn't desire to starve your contractors. If you want them to stay around, you want them to get a fair part of the exchange and be able to live decently and keep their businesses going. It also fits into the sailor's ancient feeling for karma -- a vessel maintained on screwing anyone cannot possibly find Neptune's favor.

However, it is absolutely false that the only way to undercut one's competitors is to cut CORNERS, or even margin. The best way to undercut your competitors is to be more efficient. Less overhead, higher productivity, better technology, cheaper real estate, bigger volumes, cheaper labor, better sourcing of materials, intelligent outsourcing or subcontracting, etc etc etc etc. "Cheaper labor" isn't necessarily unqualified or exploitative -- it's just using the right labor forces for the job, having well managed junior people for example. That's called competition, and it makes the world go round. A more efficient operation, when it's done well, can provide BETTER results, as well as a lower price -- maybe not as often as it should, but it's not an inherent contradiction.

[hellosailor]

"In general" Sure, but that's the fine print.
In some parts of Florida there are 5x-10x as many boats as there are dock and marina spots for them. Yards can charge what they please because everyone is booked up for months ahead. In Detroit? No magic, but I'd bet real estate is a lot cheaper, wages can be lower, and there's a lot fewer boats-per-dock lined up for the work. So the price gouging just isn't as bad. Florida being infamous for having and needing specific laws to pursue the price gouging that happens every hurricane season, too. For everything.
I needed upholstery work once. Got crazy quotes from all sorts of places, and then I found what was said to literally be the last actually shop in NYC, not on the mainland, that actually DID the work rather than jobbing it out. Same work, more better material choices, barely half the price. No fine print: You just had to figure out how to find the place, in an industrial area, with no advertising expenses and no fancy rent.
And I've been on the same side of that fence. I once got an odd phone call on my answering machine from Uncle Sam, asking if I could fill an order to some obscure technical goods. My reaction was "WTF? They want what? From me? Well...customers is customers. I knew a guy who knew a guy and I tracked down the actual single manufacturer of the prime goods. Got and filled the contract (and the purchasing agent was just as baffled with why they'd sent him to me, as I was to hear from them) and he actually asked, how come so little? Was I sure of that price? I said absolutely. I spent so much, added my normal margin, and that's what it came to. They'd pay 5x as much the first time around, for the same goods. Simply because no one had a clue as to where they could find a real source.
So yeah, if a boatyard or anyone else can gouge on prices? They often do. That's all it takes.
If I'd done the same thing, I could have bought a real nice big boat when I first got interested in sailing.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

However, it is absolutely false that the only way to undercut one's competitors is to cut CORNERS, or even margin.

Hmmm, it appears the context of my post was substantially changed.

Go figure?

That aside...

Competition is a very complex matter with innumerable variables.

From the underlying premise that everything else is equal, "From the business standpoint, the only way to undercut one's competitors is to cut costs (corners) or margin."

Again, it is the integrity of the contractor that is far, far, far more important than the estimate amount.

People confuse this all the time.

Young boys followed their Mom's into department stores where a big deal was made about how much something was "on sale".

They heard their Dad haggled a "great deal" on a used car (which may have actually sold for more than the minimum the dealer was willing to accept).

This trains the "purchaser" from a young age to attempt to shop for the lowest price possible on everything.

If too many shop for commodity goods based on lowest price, service goes out the window, because cutting service "improves efficiency".

I see lots of retailers going through this.

Someone walks into the bricks and mortar shop, asks all kinds of questions, gets $500 worth of answers, and then goes on-line to purchase the item for $10 less from someone else. (Perhaps from China, who cares?)

What could possibly go wrong if everyone did this?

And that's just the retail side.

But when what is being purchased is mostly service, shopping for lowest price is actually very dangerous, and unlikely to result in satisfaction.

Because, everything else equal, the lower price may very well come at way too high a cost.

[Popeye46]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

I just had a price quote by a marina in Florida to.. 1. Acid wash the bottom (1 hr) 2. Sand and feather out paint (3 hours), and 3. Prep prop and shaft (1hr). Hourly rate quoted at $92/hr. Here's the kicker...labor to apply 1 coat (1 gallon) of bottom paint quoted at $720.16. That's USD!! I can run a coat of bottom paint on my boat in about an hour or so with a roller.

Am I missing something??

I think they have a minium price in mind and massage the figured to suit, nonetheless 3 hours to sand and feather is a bit light. However I must say whether they charged a fortune for sanding or just 3 hours the end result would probably be the same, the bottom will look like a lunar landscape. Sanding the antifoul on a boat is about as popular as a pork chop at a jewish wedding to anybody working in a boatyard.
I feel your pain

[bgallinger]

The yard in Detroit carried out the sanding and painting to my complete satisfaction. The bill was $505 as promised with no additional costs of any kind. After the bill was paid the manager suggested I consider their yard for winter storage.

[hellosailor]

rod-
The phrase "bought cheap, paid dearly" has been around the US since long before WW2, much less the internet.
Sometimes a price is too cheap, sometimes it isn't. Often the buyer has no idea of what a reasonable price is.
In fact, whole industries, both at the wholesale and retail level, have made it a point to ensure that the buyers do not and cannot have any idea of what a reasonable price is. And, that they have no way to compare prices. Consider the mattress industry: Can you ever compare two mattresses? Not really, not often. Home appliances or electronics? Not since Crazy Eddie, when the manufacturers learned to provide slightly different models and model numbers to each vendor or channel.
Bottom paint? Well, Benjamin Moore had a problem with warranty complaints several years ago, and found out that house painters were saving and cleaning their cans--and refilling them with cheap paint claiming it was theirs. Do you *really* know what any boatyard is using, unless you supply the paint and watch it being applied? Oh, right.
When your supermarket has a loss-leader, the sale goods on the end caps, do you know if it is being sold at a loss? Do you care, as long as you can stock up on it? Selling at a loss actually makes a profit for them, and for many others.
So you do what you can, when you can. Debating economics and business operations? Not so relevant to the question at hand.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

The yard in Detroit carried out the sanding and painting to my complete satisfaction. The bill was $505 as promised with no additional costs of any kind. After the bill was paid the manager suggested I consider their yard for winter storage.

Different areas often have different price structures and it's usually not a result of cutting corners.

It's common up north to get discounts if you can time work to a slow period (mid summer or mid winter usually). Spring they are usually slammed because everyone wants something done before the start of the season. Fall, they are slammed as everyone needs to be hauled and winterized.

Other times they often struggle to find work for their employees, so it's worth while to give discounts to keep them busy thru the lulls.

[bgallinger]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

rod-
The phrase "bought cheap, paid dearly" has been around the US since long before WW2, much less the internet.
Sometimes a price is too cheap, sometimes it isn't. Often the buyer has no idea of what a reasonable price is.
In fact, whole industries, both at the wholesale and retail level, have made it a point to ensure that the buyers do not and cannot have any idea of what a reasonable price is. And, that they have no way to compare prices. Consider the mattress industry: Can you ever compare two mattresses? Not really, not often. Home appliances or electronics? Not since Crazy Eddie, when the manufacturers learned to provide slightly different models and model numbers to each vendor or channel.
Bottom paint? Well, Benjamin Moore had a problem with warranty complaints several years ago, and found out that house painters were saving and cleaning their cans--and refilling them with cheap paint claiming it was theirs. Do you *really* know what any boatyard is using, unless you supply the paint and watch it being applied? Oh, right.
When your supermarket has a loss-leader, the sale goods on the end caps, do you know if it is being sold at a loss? Do you care, as long as you can stock up on it? Selling at a loss actually makes a profit for them, and for many others.
So you do what you can, when you can. Debating economics and business operations? Not so relevant to the question at hand.

Thanks for the lesson in economics, but I supplied the paint as I stated at the beginning. It's SeaHawk paint which has served me well as bottom paint on my boat.

[old frog]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

... I supplied the 1 gallon of paint needed (Seahawk Biocop).

Why shouldn't the vendor charge retail?

You supply the paint thereby denying the service provider vendor & his suppliers the opportunity to obtain a margin on the materials. They need to use the best practices in preparation and application as they are now in the application chain. What happens if the paint fails/fouls prematurely? Was it their fault? Your provided materials? etc. Should they provide a haul-out for inspection of the fouled bottom?

Remember they have very significant overhead costs.

Also understand that anti-foulant paint in many jurisdictions is considered a hazardous material. Are you going to retake custody of the used paint cans & materials? Or, do they need to dispose of them add it to their VOC compliance register & accounting?

To me, it is much the same as you attempting to purchase a steak from a discount meat supplier & then take it to a restaurant, asking them to prepare & serve it, while you dine in their facilities and then complain about the mark up.

[bgallinger]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Different areas often have different price structures and it's usually not a result of cutting corners.

It's common up north to get discounts if you can time work to a slow period (mid summer or mid winter usually). Spring they are usually slammed because everyone wants something done before the start of the season. Fall, they are slammed as everyone needs to be hauled and winterized.

Other times they often struggle to find work for their employees, so it's worth while to give discounts to keep them busy thru the lulls.

There was no slow period in Detroit to reduce their prices. The marinas are going full on to catch up with the demand from a delayed spring. My boat is a sailboat and was trucked north from St. Augustine. I had to book the crane 2 weeks in advance to step the mast. I also inquired about wages at this marina. Their STARTING rate is $18/hr. I think that's quite good.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

There was no slow period in Detroit to reduce their prices. The marinas are going full on to catch up with the demand from a delayed spring. My boat is a sailboat and was trucked north from St. Augustine. I had to book the crane 2 weeks in advance to step the mast. I also inquired about wages at this marina. Their STARTING rate is $18/hr. I think that's quite good.

Question: If planning to truck a boat from Florida to Detroit, why on earth would you even consider painting the bottom in Florida?

PS, $18/hr for 6 months x 30 hrs/wk of work, after deductions, makes around $11K / yr net, and no summer vacation.

Even for Detroit, likely the most depressed economy in the US, that sucks.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Question: If planning to truck a boat from Florida to Detroit, why on earth would you even consider painting the bottom in Florida?

PS, $18/hr for 6 months x 30 hrs/wk of work, after deductions, makes around $11K / yr net, and no summer vacation.

Even for Detroit, likely the most depressed economy in the US, that sucks.

Seasonal marina staff is usually March thru November with some staff working year round. In the busy periods, it's more like 50-60hr per week and you get your winters off. Run the numbers and you will find it's pretty close to a year round 40hr/wk job, so yeah, $18/hr isn't bad.

Someone working 6 months @ 30hr/wk doesn't want to work more. I do know some old retired guys who like to hang around boats and make a little side cash who fit this bill.

Staffing typically cuts back in the winter at a lot of marinas but they often schedule larger projects then when time frames get easier to keep the full time staff busy..if you need to order a part, no big deal if it will take 2 weeks if you are still 3 months from launch.

PS: Inner city Detroit is a wasteland. Metro Detroit is quite nice and the marinas in the area are hopping.

[bgallinger]

Good grief. I asked CF readers if they thought paying $720 to apply ONE gallon of paint was reasonable. Sanding/prep work was extra $$, and I supply the paint.
I'm done

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Seasonal marina staff is usually March thru November with some staff working year round. It's more like 50-60hr per week and you get your winters off.

.

I run a marine service business at about the same latitude / climate as Detroit and know exactly how it works.

It most certainly depends on the size of service business, but for an average 400 slip marina would go something like this...

The Service Manager may be a year round employee, typically at $40-$50 K gross.

There may be one or two multi-skilled skilled staff @ $20-22 / hr worth keeping that are on from about mid March to mid November. Somebody really good may be kept on salary over the winter so as to retain them.

The guys that only do painting and polishing, may get the odd day before mid April and then go great guns for 2-3 weeks. They can be kept busy with launch activities for another 2 weeks, then post launch polishing to June 30.

One guy may be kept for washing and cleaning up shop till end of September.

I was being generous at 6 months x 30 hrs. Most won't get that much. Over 44 hours per week is time and a half. Doesn't usually happen.

Run the numbers and you will find it's pretty close to a year round 40hr/wk job, so yeah, $18/hr isn't bad.

In somebody's dreams.

For most marina service staff, they will not see year round in their lifetime. Nor 40 hrs/wk steady.

Someone working 6 months @ 30hr/wk doesn't want to work more.

That's BS. Nobody likes to be laid off for winter (except those making a crapload that can vacation south). Painters are polishers aren't in this echelon. Most want full time work, there is no off-season service work at the marina for them, the skilled guys are getting what there is.

I do know some old retired guys who like to hang around boats and make a little side cash who fit this bill.

And those are the guys that are kept on beyond the rush, because they'll stick around for less, plus they have some skills, so they are worth keeping around. They don't paint or polish.

Staffing typically cuts back in the winter at a lot of marinas but they often schedule larger projects then when time frames get easier to keep the full time staff busy..if you need to order a part, no big deal if it will take 2 weeks if you are still 3 months from launch.

Exactly my point, the painters and polishers are long gone. They'll be lucky if they made $10 K net.

PS: Inner city Detroit is a wasteland. Metro Detroit is quite nice and the marinas in the area are hopping.

So where do you suppose the seasonal painters and polishers are coming from, Metro penthouse apartments or Crack St. abandoned buildings?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

Good grief. I asked CF readers if they thought paying $720 to apply ONE gallon of paint was reasonable. Sanding/prep work was extra $$, and I supply the paint.
I'm done

Enjoy your bottom job.

If it didn't come at yours, please consider whose expense it came at.