Battleborns with Balmar 614 and not smoking your alternator

[Eastward ho 24]

Im aware of the proprietary “systems” that are proven to work. I’m also aware of the idea of mixing a buffer battery but don’t like the idea. Also talk of charging the start battery and running dc/dc chargers from start to house, I don’t like that either.this topic isn’t really about the differences in them.
looking at lifepo4 battery prices, reviews, and warranty’s. It seems of all the big manufacturers battleborn are cheaper and best in warranty and nothing but good reviews. MILITARY DISCOUNT and assembled in USA.(on a side note F*** China but all cells come from China I think...)I saw a video of a guy dissecting one, and it’s bms and wiring seems pretty robust compared side by side to the other well known brand ,But I wouldn’t know because I’m no expert, although he claimed to be. maybe I’m wrong.
Seems like all I hear from dealers and maunufacturers is that drop ins suck and internal noncomunicable bms suck too. I believe this, but can it be done with drop ins and do the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? if you buy their “system” with their battery’s and all their gadgets and gizmos youll be safe and sound. I want the least wires,connections, and least components. Kiss .I do not want to give the impression that I’m snubbing my nose to the experts who are clearly more knowledgeable then me, and very helpful, as long as I’m asking about their equipment, but god forbid I ask about mixing equipment from different manufacturers. I get it. ... But for some reason my spider senses tingle.
The advantages I speak of in my opinion are: the fast recharge time, and all the good things associated with that, and lifetime 10 year life.
I think the way to simplify a lifepo4 system with battleBorn drop in battery’s ( and be safe from a bms dump) that will consist of just the battery’s, any alternator that can be externally regulated by the Balmar 614, and a sterling alt protection device. The protection device may or not be needed I’m not sure yet . The battleborn batteries bms high voltage dissconnect is above 14.6 volts. So if I were to set my 614 regulator to charge my battery’s and to a high limit of 14.5v it should stop charging before a bms disconnect. In Balmar mc614 pro I would set the following:

Ba: lifepo4

Bel: belt load manager ( max charge is 50amp per 100amp battleborn battery. So 3 battery’s 150amp 4 battery’s 400 amp and so forth as long as the alternator rated or derated to produce less then 50 amp per battery.

Dsp: pick your desired display mode

Bdl: alternator fail advisory mode off(?)

Pra settings

DLC: start delay your preference

Ahl: 14.5 high volt limit or equalization. set to less then 14.6

Cl: 14.4 compensation temp limit . set to less then 14.6

Bv: 14.4 bulk voltage. set to less then 14.6

B1c: 0.3 x 6 mins. Bulk voltage time this would be 18 mins at 14.4.

Av: 14.3 absorption voltage

A1c: 2.5 x6 mins ( absorption time 2.5 hrs at 14.3)

Fv: float voltage 13.0 (or 12.9 ********* I will be charging a start battery [Agm] with a Balmar dc to dc charger. The dc to dc charger senses 13v or mor it passes 30amps to the start bank. So I think in this case I will set my float to 12.9?)

F1c: 0.1x6 min. Float time 6 mins.

All:12 v low limit

Fab: not used default
Ffl: not used default

Al1: (?) alt temp limit

B1l: (?) Default

Slp: (?) default

Does any one see an issue with the theory of this? I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. To be honest I’m just not smart enough to fully understand alternator and battery charging regimes but I think I got a loose grasp. I’ve read and read and read just don’t have the I.Q to understand charge acceptance rates ,charging cycle regimes , and the real technical stuff. I’ll probably simplify further and eliminate the start bank.

[gamayun]

Oh wow, good luck! I started down that path with the instructions for a pretty simple AGM bank and it made my head ache.

[Eastward ho 24]

Haha yes....

[Dockhead]

Looks like a reasonable plan to me. I think the alternator protect device is surely a better idea than mixing this system up with a lead battery. Belt saver will protect your alternator from being overloaded, but is it in general up to the job? This may be a good case for upgrading the alternator BESIDES protecting it with the Balmar regulator.


However, is this simplicity worth the high cost? By now there is enough experience out there to know how to put together a system out of prismatic cells. See the big LiFePo4 thread. It's actually not rocket science, and it will be cheaper and more flexible. You don't throw away the control systems if you have to change the cells some day, like you do with drop-ins. All you need is contactors for high and low voltage cutoffs, a BMS, and a battery box. On top of what you would be doing anyway to use drop-ins (regulator, alternator protection device).



I was all ready to pull the trigger on such a system myself, although due to the peculiar architecture of my electrical system it would have been somewhat more complicated. I aborted all this due to the Coronavirus crisis (concerns about time and money), unfortunately, and just went with T105's. A friend helped me break through the reason why I did not do this earlier, but lengthening my battery boxes so T105's would fit.

[Eastward ho 24]

I just got a new 170 amp alternator so I think it will handle the Job, plus I’ll de rate it so it’s not running full out. I hear your t105 decision echoing in my head...I already have the alt reg and protection device I feel like it’s a waste if I don’t go lithium..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24

I just got a new 170 amp alternator so I think it will handle the Job, plus I’ll de rate it so it’s not running full out. I hear your t105 decision echoing in my head...I already have the alt reg and protection device I feel like it’s a waste if I don’t go lithium..

I've done a thorough study of this question, and I'm convinced that the advantages of lithium are simply immense. I regret having aborted my installation, but it was simply the right thing to do under the conditions we have now.



I can understand the attraction of the simplicity of drop-in's, but here are a few arguments to go with prismatic cells instead:


1. Cost. Not just the initial cost, but the running cost -- lithium is very long lived but not forever. With a prismatic installation you don't throw away all the control systems when you change the cells.



2. Better control. You can connect a standard BMS into your inverter/charger and possibly into your alternator regulator (at least you can do this with the Wakespeed WS500). You will want some controls you won't be able to do with drop-ins -- like shutting down charging at half charge for storage or when you're on shore power for a long time.



3. More compact.


4. Larger more robust cells (at least if you go xS1P or even xS2P configuration).




I think lithium is different enough that it deserves a fresh installation in the right configuration, rather than trying to jam it into a lead-centric electrical system.

[Dockhead]

Wait a minute, is this going into a 32 foot boat? What is the proposed capacity of the system?


I ask because this question looks somewhat different if the system is small enough not to require more than a couple of drop-ins, rather than a whole bunch of paralleled ones.

[Eastward ho 24]

Yes this is going on 32. I think (3) 100 amp hour will do.

[mitiempo]

Having sold both stand alone LiFePo4 with external BMS and drop-ins I would never buy drop-in LiFePo4 batteries. The flexibility Dockhead mentions and including the ability to safely shut down an alternator is paramount I think.
Less expensive as well.

[Dulcesuenos]

I have a different view, I invested in better solar and charge controllers. I do use a b2b, dc to dc charge system with a fla start batt. My reasons are simple. Super expensive High output alternators and charge controllers are expensive, temperamental and I see ALOT of them failing for one reason or another out cruising. my stock 55 amp alternators last decades,,,It's no biggie if your stateside, plus using your engine as your main source of charge isn't a great practice imho. High eng hours, carbon buildup fuel use etc etc. I keep the engine charging side of lifepo4 very simple.

[Eastward ho 24]

I don’t really understand the flexibility and why it’s needed?

I haven’t looked into building my own cells, maybe I ought to, but I’m thinking time labor tools and parts? I can get three battleborns for under 3k and as the name implies just drop them on in. I always think In 10 yrs if I gotta replace them they’ll probably be pretty affordable or I’ll have hit the lottery by then.

I’m not to sure about shutting down charging at half charge with the 614 but it does have small engine mode to reduce output by 50%. But why would I want to shut down charging? If the battery’s are at 14.5 a tenth of a volt under the bms cut out they will stop charging any how. I guess I need to look into shutting down charging via the 614 regulator. I never thought of that or why I would want to.

I’ve got plenty of room I’ll be replaceing a 4 battery lead bank.

And 300ah is plenty for what I need I can probably even do 200ah.

I just can’t seem to understand does the regulator work on a time regime. As in I’ve programmed the regulator bulk float and absorption times? If I’m in a situation where my solar (which is yet to come) has my bank full and I start the motor does the regulator see its full and just float? Or is it hell bent on running the bulk absorption and float as per time that is programmed.?


On a side note about the sterling alt protection device. It recomends 10 guage wires and a 5 amp fuse. When I got it I noticed that, and was thinking if there is a bms dump or some other situation where the device would be diverting the alternators out put to ground wouldn’t that just blow the 5amp fuse or worse smoke the 10 guage wire? Thus rendering the device useless?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24

On a side note about the sterling alt protection device. It recomends 10 guage wires and a 5 amp fuse. When I got it I noticed that, and was thinking if there is a bms dump or some other situation where the device would be diverting the alternators out put to ground wouldn’t that just blow the 5amp fuse or worse smoke the 10 guage wire? Thus rendering the device useless?

I think you may be misunderstanding what that device is/how it works? It's supposed to protect against a sudden unloading of the alternator. It doesn't accomplish this by grounding the positive terminal of the alternator! It simply replaces the load that got dumped with a much smaller load that is hopefully enough to keep your alternator voltage from spiking.

[Eastward ho 24]

Are you sure. Maybe I’m misunderstand this from the package of the device

Pro Protect
The Pro Protect is a highly effective alternator protection device which prevents high
voltage back EMF spikes destroying your alternator’s expensive regulator and internal
diode pack. The Pro Protect prevents extreme damage occurring to your main and
auxiliary system devices. Most common faults which cause this problem are:
1) Loose wires causing an alternator wire to become undone / loose causing sparking.
2) Failure in a split diode/relay charging system, open circuiting this system.
3) Someone switching off engine’s electrical power when engine is actually running.
4) Defective rotary battery selection switch causing arcing during rotation.
5) Failure of a fuse if fitted in the alternator’s circuit.
All the above events could easily destroy your alternator’s sensitive parts, this device will
prevent this by diverting any high spike build up to earth, this is effective from full power
to no power fault events on the alternator. Most alternator regulators and internal diode
packs will be damaged by spikes in excess of 40V. The Pro Protect is designed to absorb
spikes in excess of 18V (12V) and 36V (24V systems).
Installation:
(N.B we do not supply any cables with the Pro Protect, we recommend the use of a 10A cable (place Pro Protect as near to alternator as possible)
Simply connect the positive / negative output connection from the Pro Protect to the positive / negative output of the alternator. It’s always best to connect the Pro Protect ring terminal to the inside of the bolts of the alternator’s main power cables. I.e. there will already be the main alternator outputs on the alternator’s stud. For maximum protection remove the main cables and place the protection device on the bolt shaft first, then add the main cables after (thus sandwiching in the protection cable). If the tensioning nut on the main cable becomes loose the main cable will fall off first leaving the protection device on the alternator, this will save the alternator. If the Pro Protect cable is on top of the live cable (not held in by the live cable) then, when the Pro Protect cable falls off, the alternator will not be protected.
In the event there are no nuts then it’s up to the installer to connect the wires as close as possible to the alternator’s main power output. The closer the Pro Protect wires are fitted the more possible events it can protect for.
+-
12v
24v
++
IP68 Waterproof Deutsch
www.sterling-power.com www.sterling-power-usa.com
English French
RoHS compliant
+
www.sterling-power.com www.sterling-power-usa.com
manufactured in Taiwan
Waterproof
Use a 5 amp fuse in the contr

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Eastward ho 24

Are you sure. Maybe I’m misunderstand this from the package of the device

Pro Protect
The Pro Protect is a highly effective alternator protection device which prevents high
voltage back EMF spikes destroying your alternator’s expensive regulator and internal
diode pack. The Pro Protect prevents extreme damage occurring to your main and
auxiliary system devices. Most common faults which cause this problem are:
1) Loose wires causing an alternator wire to become undone / loose causing sparking.
2) Failure in a split diode/relay charging system, open circuiting this system.
3) Someone switching off engine’s electrical power when engine is actually running.
4) Defective rotary battery selection switch causing arcing during rotation.
5) Failure of a fuse if fitted in the alternator’s circuit.
All the above events could easily destroy your alternator’s sensitive parts, this device will
prevent this by diverting any high spike build up to earth, this is effective from full power
to no power fault events on the alternator. Most alternator regulators and internal diode
packs will be damaged by spikes in excess of 40V. The Pro Protect is designed to absorb
spikes in excess of 18V (12V) and 36V (24V systems).
Installation:
(N.B we do not supply any cables with the Pro Protect, we recommend the use of a 10A cable (place Pro Protect as near to alternator as possible)
Simply connect the positive / negative output connection from the Pro Protect to the positive / negative output of the alternator. It’s always best to connect the Pro Protect ring terminal to the inside of the bolts of the alternator’s main power cables. I.e. there will already be the main alternator outputs on the alternator’s stud. For maximum protection remove the main cables and place the protection device on the bolt shaft first, then add the main cables after (thus sandwiching in the protection cable). If the tensioning nut on the main cable becomes loose the main cable will fall off first leaving the protection device on the alternator, this will save the alternator. If the Pro Protect cable is on top of the live cable (not held in by the live cable) then, when the Pro Protect cable falls off, the alternator will not be protected.
In the event there are no nuts then it’s up to the installer to connect the wires as close as possible to the alternator’s main power output. The closer the Pro Protect wires are fitted the more possible events it can protect for.
+-
12v
24v
++
IP68 Waterproof Deutsch
www.sterling-power.com www.sterling-power-usa.com
English French
RoHS compliant
+
www.sterling-power.com www.sterling-power-usa.com
manufactured in Taiwan
Waterproof
Use a 5 amp fuse in the contr

Right, it protects against voltage spikes. What causes voltage spikes in an alternator? Rapid unloading of the alternator from a heavy load to zero load. This device prevents the voltage spikes by ensuring that it's never unloaded all the way to zero rapidly.

By the way, it's amps that melt fuses and wires, not volts.

[Eastward ho 24]

Yes I have a 170Amp alt.....