adding bowthruster to 60 foot ferrocement boat

[moseriw]

friend of mine designed a chinese chunk? of 90ft. He said that all through hulls have to be done when the boat is built. Any modification will destroy the integrity of the iron skeleton = corrosion. He did not find a work around.

[TrentePieds]

Ted: You mentioned insurance, sort of in passing. Did insurance underwriters turn you down? If so, what were their stated grounds? Has your boat had a recent survey?

I would think that asking a surveyor if he would undertake a survey "after I've had the tunnel put in" would prompt some comments that would give you guidance as to the wisdom of what you are proposing.

TP

[ted manos]

thank you all for some solutions.

insurance----I cannot even get any insurer to talk to me

boat maneuvering---sure one could make it work and I have seen and done this but really guys....a 60 ton boat without maneuvering in a small American marina....that could be a disaster. I am not flush with crew either.....new technology is the best solution. The reality of moving and using such a boat becomes more realistic. I would love to forgo the expense of putting something into it to make it safe.

thanks for the pictures of the retrofit on the Ferro cement hull...nice to see it can be done.

surveyors for Ferro cement boats are basically not existent...and would cost a fortune...

I like the idea of dropping a single unit down the center of the hull...just not sure it will have enough power to move such a boats bow....the new epoxies should protect everything in the hull....remember that this boat has never been in water yet....30 year old hull.

I would like to anchor out and avoid excessive marina fees, but the reality is that you need to be in a marina...you have to get into a marina and you have to have insurance to even talk to them...even if you are cruising in America. I would probably be living on this rig.

sure I would go out and buy a 1million dollar ketch if I could but I could make this one work with limited improvements and it is essentially new.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ted manos

. . .
why bowthruster....well it is a big boat in a small area now with insurance issues....why risk it...when you have a technologically superior solution.

yes, a guy could luck out in a no wind condition and get into a stall but really....does one want to be terrified every time you go into port?????
and yes, I have seen sail boats use multiple techniques to control their boats but having multiple twin screws for years would want me to error on the side of safety.

so safety, bowthruster, insurance, and moving the boat to water are my conditions of taking on this project....and they are difficult to find.

thanks

You don't have to justify your desire for a bowthruster to anyone!


For whatever it is worth -- although I never felt the need for a thruster on boats of 10 - 12 tons or less, I would not want to go into a tight harbor on a bigger boat -- a boat too big to manhandle -- without one. There are just too many situations where you need to be able to move the boat sideways or control the lateral position of the boat, especially with any wind. As you said -- a mistake in a tight harbor with a big boat, too big to fend off using the main force of your crew, can add up to a lot of money.

So don't listen to any of the macho "I'm so skillful, I don't need any stinking bowthruster" stuff.

You could say the same thing about an auxiliary engine -- of course, it is possible to dock a sailboat under sail. But it's not just a question of skill -- it's also a question of the right conditions. Having a bowthruster (having an auxiliary engine) greatly widens the range of possible conditions, in which harbor maneuvers can be carried out.

For sure I can say I wouldn't be without a thruster on my single screw, 25 ton vessel. Another benefit of the thruster is that it makes many maneuvers which are possible without a thruster, much easier and safer. You hardly ever need to spring off (and risk getting the line in your prop); you have dramatically less risk of scraping along a pontoon, etc., etc., etc.

[ted manos]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You don't have to justify your desire for a bowthruster to anyone!


For whatever it is worth -- although I never felt the need for a thruster on boats of 10 - 12 tons or less, I would not want to go into a tight harbor on a bigger boat -- a boat too big to manhandle -- without one. There are just too many situations where you need to be able to move the boat sideways or control the lateral position of the boat, especially with any wind. As you said -- a mistake in a tight harbor with a big boat, too big to fend off using the main force of your crew, can add up to a lot of money.

So don't listen to any of the macho "I'm so skillful, I don't need any stinking bowthruster" stuff.

You could say the same thing about an auxiliary engine -- of course, it is possible to dock a sailboat under sail. But it's not just a question of skill -- it's also a question of the right conditions. Having a bowthruster (having an auxiliary engine) greatly widens the range of possible conditions, in which harbor maneuvers can be carried out.

For sure I can say I wouldn't be without a thruster on my single screw, 25 ton vessel. Another benefit of the thruster is that it makes many maneuvers which are possible without a thruster, much easier and safer. You hardly ever need to spring off (and risk getting the line in your prop); you have dramatically less risk of scraping along a pontoon, etc., etc., etc.

thank you so much for your eloquent response.....insurance rules the industry now....not our boating skills. As such you cannot be safe enough

[ted manos]

INSURANCE ISSUES
ok guys need help on this
Ferro cement Samson 60 footer.
need insurance...have been in boaters US for 20 years and they blew me off
have tried all the usual foreign underwriters and they blew me off
any suggestions....how am I going to get this boat into a US marina with out insurance.


any body know of an outfit that would let you self insure.....but would write the paper for you so you can present it to a marina?


1. foreign is not doing it


colemans in the UK

Thank you for your enquiry again. Unfortunately I have just discovered as a broker, we are not able to offer cover to US citizens and residents. Although this may change at present I am not able to offer any further assistance.

Thank you again for your enquiry and I hope you find the cover you are looking for.

Kind regards


2, brokers are not doing it---most...even marine people...have no idea what the problems are


3. internet is not doing it--fill out forms and you get rejections


Reference #:2017-137-0137Record Statuseclined




Thank you for your submission. Unfortunately, we are unable to provide you with a quote at this time because your risk does not meet the current underwriting guidelines shown:




Cement construction is restricted.








boat is not to point where it can be surveyed...ie needs to be completed but hate to spend any more money on it without at least getting a potential to survey.


if I could survey....there are no real good cement boat surveyors....if so let me know about some in the North West...seattle area.


thanks
ted

[Snowpetrel]

Ferro Cement can be a tricky one, as can be older timber boats, old boats of any type, custom boats etc basically the insurance industry doesn't really like anything that is not a new production boat that is kept in a marina and used twice a year. You can usually hear the pause when they realise your boat design is not on the data base of "common" production yachts.

At the very least you are going to need a survey. There are places that insure 'odd' boats but it will probably take some looking and convincing.

[captlloyd]

Yes, first step is a survey. I built a 64ft. steel sailboat and to my surprise the insurance man with my home-owners policy said he thought he could run it through with no problem. He did, with-out even a survey. I was sure to tell him it was diesel powered, they like that. Try it, you never know. Language I think is important, it's not a "home-built" boat, it's a "custom built " boat. Sounds much better does't it? "One-off design", nice ring to it. You are dealing with bean counters.

[TrentePieds]

Ted:


This one was written a coupla days ago, but seems to have got lost in the ether. It's obviously a reply to your latest that Snowpetrel also responded to.

What you have bitten off may be indigestible. It is unlikely that you can find insurance without a survey. I believe that Jan deGroot out of Vancouver was around when Samson Marine built the LaFarge Barges, as they were commonly known around here. It is possible that he has actual experience surveying FC boats, or at least FC hulls. I have seen one or two FC hulls that were excellently built. I hope yours is one such. However, even if that be so, I would urge you to give thought to what I say below.

If I were a surveyor - which I am not - I would partition the survey into two parts: 1) The hull itself and 2) the fitting out. because the fitting out is rather independent of the material used in the hull construction save for some rather obvious overlaps such as the fastening of the chain plates. I think that for a hull this size, and in particularly for an "owner fitted" hull, you would be looking at some few thousand dollars in survey fees, but without acceptable survey you are not likely to get insurance.


Jan DeGroot's address is: 21909 3 Ave, Langley, BC.

While the material here: Surveyor's Negligence , is rather dense, I think you would do your self a favour reading it because it will give an insight into the complicated legal environment in which surveyors and marine insurance underwriters operate. Always remember that you approach to a surveyor or an underwriter is an INVITATION from you to him/them to enter into a legally binding contract with far-reaching legal consequences. Precisely because the legal consequences for surveyor/insurer can be so far-reaching, the surveyor/underwriter is perfectly free to decline your invitation if he doesn't like what he sees - specifically if he doesn't like what he sees in your approach to him.

A 60 footer is a mighty big hammer, so make sure you understand what it means to "self-insure", and what the legal implications of it are. IMO that is simply a foolish and delusionary thing to do. I argue consistently that no man should ever put more money in a boat than he can walk away from with a smile on his face. Being able to do that covers "self-insuring" the hull. LIABILITY insurance is a kettle of fish of a different colour, and , without knowing your circumstances, I doubt that you would have the financial strength to "self-insure" for liability. I certainly don't!!

It is possible, if you have home-owners or tenants insurance, that the liability component of that insurance will cover you for liability while operating your boat. Read the "wordings" of your policy, particularly the "exclusions". You will find that operating hang gliders and other such fun activities, as well as engaging in automobile/sailboat racing, and very possibly going sunday-sailing in a boat such as yours, will invalidate the liability coverage while you are doing so. That is why you are unlikely to find a marina slip unless you have liability insurance ON THE BOAT. But you won't get it, methinks, without a current survey. And I dare say, given the size of the boat, you won't get it unless you, as skipper, are able to furnish the requisite, recognized "proof of competence"

Not very cheerful counsel, I know, but the good thing about beating your head against a wall is that it feels so-o-o good when you stop :-)!

All the best



TP

[HankOnthewater]

regarding insurance, these people insure ferro cement boats:
Marine Insurance for Boats, Insurance for Sail Boats, Insurance for Power Boats and Insurance for Cruise Boats worldwide. Edward William Marine Insurance.
I was insured with them for 10 or 15 years. All via the internet and sometimes no survey needed. Do not know how good they are when claiming as I never had to do that.
Yes, most marinas insist on insurance and liability of several million dollars (ie 10 or 20).

here is an example of an Australian boat insured with them: https://lisablairsailstheworld.com/the-record/

[Snowpetrel]

Well, sounds like they did the right thing (and then some,,) by Lisa when she lost her rig south of africa.