Adding a deck saloon

[rma]

Preamble: I fully concede that this idea may be ridiculous.

Dreaming of building my "ideal" sail cruiser over the next 3-4 years and am enamored by the deck saloon concept of boats like the Sirius 31DS, 35DS, or the Moody Eclipse 43. All of these designs have a "center" cabin that is really appealing, not to mention, they just seem like well laid-out, thoughtful designs.

I'd love to build something in the 33-35 foot range with this deck saloon/center cockpit design.

Then reality sets in.

In the interest of time and money, refitting a boat that is in need of some TLC and making it suite my needs is a much more realistic project. However, if I am going to fully refit a boat, now I'm wondering if, in the process, might one be able to add a deck saloon and move some bulkheads around in the hull? Obviously keeping in mind structural components and adding extra reinforcement where necessary (and consulting a naval architect).

I've mocked up some designs on Sketchup using the hull dimensions of some common and reasonably priced older boats (Beneteau 351, Hunter 33 & 37 Legend) and definitely think working within the existing hull shapes is possible, especially given that these boats have between 24" and 30" inches of clearance between the cabin top and the boom (and the deck saloon would only add ~18" in my designs).

Obviously, added windage and weight are factors contributing to the absurdity of this idea but keep in mind that my intended use is Carribean cruising and speed and performance are not at the top of my list. Additionally, looking at some of the dodger/biminis that cruisers commonly add, I'd guess that some of those add far more windage than a sleek deck saloon would add, but hey that's why I'm here looking for your thoughts.

I'm not totally naive to the amount of work a project like this would entail and am aware that refits are expensive and time-consuming. I'm just wondering hypothetically, how feasible a project like this could be.

Any advice, thoughts, or kind/thoughtful critique to bring me back to reality is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


TLDR: Is it possible to add a deck saloon to a sailboat during a refit?

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by rma

Is it possible to add a deck saloon to a sailboat during a refit?

Sure it's possible. Anything is possible given enough time and money. And therein lies the rub. You will almost certainly end up spending more to add a deck saloon to a boat that was not designed for one than you would to just buy a boat that has a deck saloon in the first place. Never mind the huge amount of time and effort you will have to put into it; time that could have been spent sailing, if you weren't spending it on such a massive project.


If you like the idea of this sort of project just for the sake of the project, then go for it. If what you want is to be out sailing a boat that has a deck saloon, you would be time and money ahead to just buy one rather than build one.


Good luck, whatever you do.

[Bill O]

Agree with the large amount of time/money/effort for such a project and may not be worth it in the long run. Also don't know your skill level to complete such a project. If not done correctly (structurally/aesthetically), may be difficult to sell the boat later.
Many boats we see (in the tropics) w/large windows/deck saloons end up attempting to block the sun/heat influx by putting up Phifertex or curtains. Don't really see the long term gain here and would rather keep the cabin cooler than warmer.

In the tropics, we also spend more time in the cockpit and not down below. We feel the insulated hard top and opening glass windows in the dodger keeps it nice and cool, even in the hottest days.
If you are looking for more light below and you have deck space, maybe add more hatches. Did that on a 40' we owned and made a huge difference. Added benefit is you can open it for good airflow. Much quicker/less expensive to add hatches this than make a whole cabin top.


Bill O.

[Karafox8]

How much money do you have for that project?
Maybe better to find something existing?
Look at Van De Stadt Norman.

[fatherchronica]

I have seen some talented and highly motivated folks over the years take worthless boats and transform them or remodel boats like they were just adding on their home. Joshua Slocum and Harry Pidgeon come to mind as individuals who could build a deck saloon in a timely manner and shove off. but for the vast majority of people I have ever heard of or met, the enormity of the task would last far into the end days of a boat, that would eventually be cut up for scrap, or sold on Craigslist under " owner builder died and I just want it out of wherever it was the day the project began" I am not usually a naysayer, but I am just suggesting you really soul search and make sure that you have never ever in your life taken anything apart that was eventually tossed, or have ever gone years without nailing a piece of trim up in that bathroom remodel you did. Because unless you are a professional with a lot of money it will be come a nightmare project. Years ago I stopped at a boatyard I had hauled my 1st boat at in 1974 on a day they were cleaning out the abandoned projects. they had a really nice Bingham 50 footer for free and they were chainsawing or smashing with a backhoe about 25 other boats. Still makes me sad 20 years later.

[joesail]

I have to agree with the consensus. I Bought a 1973 center cockpit and set out to modernize the whole boat. Added a pilot house, furling main, gutted most of the interior, new electronics, new electrical, new plumbing, new motor, the works. I estimated the cost and time for the work and no matter how many experts I consulted and how much I planned I still went 4 times over my budget and my boat sat on the hard for 5 years before I returned her to the water.

Ohh and here is the kicker. We sailed the boat for 1 season afterward and bought a Catamaran because it was more practical for our sailing plans. So my advise to anyone looking to build a boat or undergo a major rebuild is don't. Buy a boat that meets your needs and the spend the time sailing rather than building.

Just my 2c
ANyone want to buy a 41' upgraded Gulfstar?

[roland stockham]

A full deck saloon is a major project and not sure if it would be ideal for Caribbean sailing. What you need is something that keeps the sun off and says cool but can quickly be made reasonably waterproof overnight and during squalls. Have you thought about a center cockpit with a rigid top but then adding roll down sides? Much easier and more flexible.

[TrentePieds]

Welcome here, rma :-)

Quote: "I fully concede that this idea may be ridiculous."

You said it ;-)!

Quote: "Dreaming of building my "ideal" sail cruiser over the next 3-4 years..."

Whyever would you want to do that??? Surely, you'd rather be sailing?

The "new to you" market is FULL of boats you can buy for a modest sum of money tomorrow morning and go sailing tomorrow afternoon. There is a proportion of those boats that will be "deck saloons", i.e. what before the glossy mags and the marketers started milking wannabe sailors for their hard-earned dough, were called "pilot house" boats.

TrentePieds, despite being only a five tonner of 25 Feet LWL, is a "pilot house" sloop although she doesn't have a inside steering station. Does that make her a "deck saloon" despite the fact that she predates glossy mags, marketers and their highfalutin' verbiage?

Here in the Salish Sea - formerly Georgia Straits named after your friend and mine King George III - I wouldn't have anything else given the weather regime. With a pilot house/deck saloon you can sail year round, so you are on the right track in that respect.

But do consider that for the cost of two cases of decent wine you can buy a 40 year old "deck saloon" boat and be on your way. The equivalent of two cases of wine is what we paid for TP. According to survey, the "replacement cost" (i.e. cost to build today) is a quarter of a million bux.

Always remember that no man should "invest" more money (or time) in a boat than he can afford to walk away from still with a smile on his face. To nothing in the world is the accountant's term "sunk cost" more apposite than to pleasure boats :-)!

All the best

TrentePieds

[Cheechako]

I love them too. But it would be a major thing. Look at the old Islander 37 MS deck saloon. I love that layout. Almost bought one a few years back that needed TLC, only $12k with a Perkins Diesel.

[Montanan]

I think adding a deck saloon is a wise idea as it will be the social center for a vessel.

We all know what the deck of boat is, i.e., the thing we swab with mops in preparation for lively dancing.

Where as a Saloon may refer to:

An alternative name for a bar
A South Asian or Cypriot term for a barber's shop
One of the bars in a traditional British public house, or pub
Saloon (automobile), a style of car body also known as a sedan
Saloon (band), an English Indie musical group
The centre room of a suite of state rooms, the drawing room
The officers' mess on a merchant vessel
A large social lounge on a passenger ship
Western saloon, a historical style of American bar

Being a Montanan, I inherently orient towards the western saloon [e.g., the Bithouse or the Two Bit saloon or the Bale of Hay saloon], but an ordinary bar or British Public House works for me. The companionway doors typically being of the swinging type on a western boat.

Reference picture below for an excellent example of a deck saloon, of which general style can be sized to suit the deck space and layout of the specific boat.

And it does not take a lot of craftsmanship, or nautical architectural skills or money to fabricate a deck saloon on a boat. Now as to the proper initial stocking and the continual restocking of such deck saloon, that is where the real expertise and expense will be incurred. Just be sure to incorporate an ice maker, a mixer and a refrigerator into the deck saloon design to enhance functionality and pleasure.

Indeed the center of gravity of the vessel may be shifted higher with the addition of a deck saloon or saloons, but then one could mitigate such by putting the kegs of beer and wine or liquor casks deep in the bilge and run the dispensing hoses to the beverage taps on deck. Heck just remove a fuel or water tank if necessary so as to have the proper tons of beverages well placed for appropriate balance keeping and adequacy of stores to enable long distance cruising or extended stays at a social anchorages.

As every experience cruiser knows, one truly needs a well equipped deck saloon to be able to readily serve cocktails to the cockpit and if the deck saloon is mounted fore or aft on the deck, one can then logically incorporate the boat with a center cockpit. Heck with a center cockpit one could then have BOTH a fore and an aft deck saloon. In fact, this layout concept seems to inherently favor a center cockpit, ketch with fore and aft deck saloons, preferably with walk through design instead of a walk over design, [ note: The need to walk / crawl OVER the saloon's bar top to move about deck and gain access to the choice of beverages would be problematic during bad weather or heavy seas, as one might inadvertently spill a drink].

As to extra windage: After you become a few sheets to the wind from libations served at the deck saloon, one will not be inclined to worry much about the modest amount extra windage induced by equipping the vessel with a deck saloon or saloons. Realize that extra windage only slows travel significantly when traveling into the wind and the extra time required to travel provides for evermore reason to have a deck saloon to enjoy whiling away more time. As to extra windage inducing leeward slippage of the vessels track through the water, such slippage will be modest compared to the slippage of inhibitions, tongues, morals, judgement and stability induced to the individuals that will customarily, cluster at the deck saloon. Whereas, the extra windage imposed by a deck saloon when headed downwind, [such as following tradewind routes] should aid in the velocity made good, and thus reduces the apparent wind on deck. One can be confident that the addition of a deck saloon will enhance the apparent good times.

But I suppose there are some cruisers that would favor below deck saloon or saloons, just as there is debate as to whether a vessel should have galley up or galley down layout but that would subject for a derivative thread.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by rma

Preamble: I fully concede that this idea may be ridiculous.

Dreaming of building my "ideal" sail cruiser over the next 3-4 years and am enamored by the deck saloon concept of boats like the Sirius 31DS, 35DS, or the Moody Eclipse 43. All of these designs have a "center" cabin that is really appealing, not to mention, they just seem like well laid-out, thoughtful designs.

I'd love to build something in the 33-35 foot range with this deck saloon/center cockpit design.

Then reality sets in.

In the interest of time and money, refitting a boat that is in need of some TLC and making it suite my needs is a much more realistic project. However, if I am going to fully refit a boat, now I'm wondering if, in the process, might one be able to add a deck saloon and move some bulkheads around in the hull? Obviously keeping in mind structural components and adding extra reinforcement where necessary (and consulting a naval architect).

I've mocked up some designs on Sketchup using the hull dimensions of some common and reasonably priced older boats (Beneteau 351, Hunter 33 & 37 Legend) and definitely think working within the existing hull shapes is possible, especially given that these boats have between 24" and 30" inches of clearance between the cabin top and the boom (and the deck saloon would only add ~18" in my designs).

Obviously, added windage and weight are factors contributing to the absurdity of this idea but keep in mind that my intended use is Carribean cruising and speed and performance are not at the top of my list. Additionally, looking at some of the dodger/biminis that cruisers commonly add, I'd guess that some of those add far more windage than a sleek deck saloon would add, but hey that's why I'm here looking for your thoughts.

I'm not totally naive to the amount of work a project like this would entail and am aware that refits are expensive and time-consuming. I'm just wondering hypothetically, how feasible a project like this could be.

Any advice, thoughts, or kind/thoughtful critique to bring me back to reality is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


TLDR: Is it possible to add a deck saloon to a sailboat during a refit?

There are used center cockpit Beneteaus that have the helm station right up against the bulkhead next to the companionway. I think most of them were built in year 2000 plus or minus.

One of those would be easy to enclose to make what amounts to a pilot house, especially if you don't need a totally hard enclosure. You could make the wind screen, sides, and roof hard without much trouble or much money. Unless going to the arctic circle I think having a well done soft pilot house would be best. Then you can take all or part of it down when you don't need it.

You can find CC Beneteaus up to 44 ft that only have two cabins. So they are nice and roomy. Plus I think most are direct drive versus sail drive which most would consider to be a plus. And often have cutter rigs which most would consider a plus.

I think for the money and time involved it would be hard to do better than the above to get something approaching what you described. I think you can find Bene CC 44's that you can sail away on for $100K plus or minus.

But as always it depends what your intended use is if the above is viable or not.

[robwilk37]

hmm. well look man, good on ya. im all for the nutty super ambitious damn the torpedoes im doing it my way attitude. if thats what you want then just do it.

i myself am 6 years into a 2 year refit ( somewhere between dramatic and modest). no matter how skilled, how well thought-out, how organized and enthusiastic you are, its a ridiculous amount of time/money/effort to pull these projects off. you have no idea til your knee deep and cant turn back. im still happy i pulled the trigger, but id rather be sailing to tell the truth.

but, fortune favors the bold...

[NorthCoastJoe]

Not worth the trouble. I built a 38 foot steel hull with my father in the 1980 he never got it to the water. He spent a huge amount of money just on space rent that in the end was for nothing.
In the fire service every department wants a custom fire engine. After working off of over 30 different styles of fire engines they all drive and all pump water. All boats float and you get the picture, well maybe not all.
Nothing needs to be your exact custom design and besides after using it you will want to change things anyway. We are looking for a larger boat now. What I look for is a boat that I have to do the least amount of work to in order to be out using it. I would much rather spend my time sailing than fabricating.

Would you rather be sailing or being itchy and dirty wondering why you got into it.

[waterman46]

If you want a bigger roomier existing boat, Cal 46. I think that design could be called a deck saloon, though I am not quite clear on the concept.

[Fore and Aft]

I surveyed a Southerly 115 last week, aft cabin, deck house and two steering positions. Nice yacht design.
I can understand the whole modifying a yacht thing. Sometimes you just have to scratch that boat building itch even if it bleeds you dry......
Cheers