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Old 07-02-2023, 18:40   #1
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Yanmar Bad design or scam

I have recently been getting annoyed with a as the start button/display on the Yanmar 3gm30 that are mounted in the charter boats are continually failing so I decided to look into it and I find the relay mounted on this assembly has contacts rated at 3A DC 5A 250vAC now (not having measured it ) the current required by the starter solenoid is well in excess of this. So is this bad design or a scam . Its the 3rd relay down from the top. The others are one for preheat one for the stop solenoid and one to power th panel. PS have started changing the relays now saving me 350USD a time
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Old 07-02-2023, 19:40   #2
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

3GM30 with that panel?
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Old 07-02-2023, 19:49   #3
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Who made the panel and why has it got pre heat and stop solenoid relays?

I haven't seen a 3GM30 with those functions?
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Old 07-02-2023, 20:57   #4
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Is this an isolated ground engine?
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Old 07-02-2023, 22:23   #5
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

I ran a Yanmar 3gm30f with nothing electronic or electrical hooked up for 11 hours non stop no problem. So why all that extra junk attached to a simple engine.
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Old 08-02-2023, 00:31   #6
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

What year is it?
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Old 08-02-2023, 01:36   #7
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Model 3YM30AE My mistake
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Old 08-02-2023, 07:24   #8
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Does the 3YM30AE have preheaters and electric shut off?
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Old 08-02-2023, 07:48   #9
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggray View Post
Does the 3YM30AE have preheaters and electric shut off?

Yes, mine do
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Old 08-02-2023, 10:09   #10
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Extra stuff maybe to appease emissions regulations but that’s just a guess, I took a Yanmar owners class a couple of years ago, the mechanic instructor said, all the EPA regulations are forcing manufacturers to complicate the engineering for minuscule emissions improvements.
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Old 08-02-2023, 10:21   #11
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

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Originally Posted by Kd9truck View Post
Extra stuff maybe to appease emissions regulations but thatís just a guess, I took a Yanmar owners class a couple of years ago, the mechanic instructor said, all the EPA regulations are forcing manufacturers to complicate the engineering for minuscule emissions improvements.

While that might be true.... I don't understand how remote start, remote start, and glow plugs have anything to do with emissions.
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Old 08-02-2023, 17:13   #12
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Ok. a 3YM30 with that that panel potentially has 2 relays before the starter solenoid. The first is the one in your photoís, the second is on the engine just before the starter solenoid hence the low amperage rating, the one thatís failing is only required to power the second relay, not the main starter solenoid. The problem could be that the second solenoid is drawing too much power and harming the panel mounted one... its just a theory but could also provide a solution. In response to your initial statement, Yanmar in my experience are not scammers or careless about design ( well, there is the SD50?) and if others are having problems with this B20 (or C30) panel Iíd be interested to hear about it on the forum. Iíve never heard of this relay (or panel) failing but maybe Iíve just been lucky.
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Old 08-02-2023, 19:25   #13
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmalina View Post
I have recently been getting annoyed with a as the start button/display on the Yanmar 3gm30 that are mounted in the charter boats are continually failing so I decided to look into it and I find the relay mounted on this assembly has contacts rated at 3A DC 5A 250vAC now (not having measured it ) the current required by the starter solenoid is well in excess of this. So is this bad design or a scam

The datasheet for the PE series of relays is available here:


https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1943544.pdf


While the versions listed in the data sheet have 5A contacts rather than 3A, I would characterize this as a low-specification part with an endurance of only 30,000 operations at 5A. Though nominally sufficient at a 5A load there are better parts available. Newark has them on clearance for under $2 each which is probably only slightly below the quantity pricing when these were a current production part.


It is important to realize that circuit assemblies in volume production go through a "value engineering" process where alternatives to high-cost parts are evaluated. Nearly always, this involves substitution of low-cost parts that end up being operated somewhat outside the design envelope. In theory some testing and some engineering is done to determine whether the lower cost part will perform reliably in the particular use case in question. In the case of relay contacts this would involve evaluating the current, the on time, the typical number of operations over the product life, the ambient temperature where the part will operate, and so on. A thorough analysis would set specific reliability goals (in terms of MTBF for the assembly as a whole) and determine the least costly mix of parts that would still allow the assembly to meet the MTBF. In most cases this would involve destructive testing -- someone would set up a test environment where the relays would be operated under load, on and off, constantly, until they failed weeks or months later.


Performed well, value engineering produces high quality products at the lowest possible price, by eliminating expensive parts that don't contribute in a meaningful way to the utility or useful life of the product. Performed sloppily, it results in expensive failures. I suppose there's a point on the continuum where a product has been "value engineered" to the extent that it could best be understood as a scam, but this isn't it. I wouldn't necessarily even hold it up as the dumbest thing a marine engine manufacturer has done, electrical design wise.



I would suspect that any decisions made were further clouded by the relatively small space available.



As you appear to have figured out, you can, of course, carve up the PC board and remove the relay, and replace it with something bigger and more reliable. There are some choices on the same footprint that would just drop in, like this 10a relay: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...184012/2397919, but they may sit higher.


You could also connect something larger with long enough leads that you can mount the relay somewhere else e.g. on a nearby gunwale or deck liner. I personally am fond of these still-inexpensive ice cube relays:


https://cdn.automationdirect.com/sta...s/78relays.pdf


I always use the 3 pole ones regardless of my needs which allows me to connect poles in parallel for more current and simplifies my spare parts strategy. Each pole is rated at 15a and 100,000 operations at full load, 10,000,000 operations at no load; in between is in between. It will outlast your engine. There are optional sockets or you can solder straight to the lugs, I've done it both ways.


That will end up being cheaper than replacing the boards the first time, and of course it won't keep failing.
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Old 09-02-2023, 11:25   #14
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
The datasheet for the PE series of relays is available here:


https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1943544.pdf


While the versions listed in the data sheet have 5A contacts rather than 3A, I would characterize this as a low-specification part with an endurance of only 30,000 operations at 5A. Though nominally sufficient at a 5A load there are better parts available. Newark has them on clearance for under $2 each which is probably only slightly below the quantity pricing when these were a current production part.


It is important to realize that circuit assemblies in volume production go through a "value engineering" process where alternatives to high-cost parts are evaluated. Nearly always, this involves substitution of low-cost parts that end up being operated somewhat outside the design envelope. In theory some testing and some engineering is done to determine whether the lower cost part will perform reliably in the particular use case in question. In the case of relay contacts this would involve evaluating the current, the on time, the typical number of operations over the product life, the ambient temperature where the part will operate, and so on. A thorough analysis would set specific reliability goals (in terms of MTBF for the assembly as a whole) and determine the least costly mix of parts that would still allow the assembly to meet the MTBF. In most cases this would involve destructive testing -- someone would set up a test environment where the relays would be operated under load, on and off, constantly, until they failed weeks or months later.


Performed well, value engineering produces high quality products at the lowest possible price, by eliminating expensive parts that don't contribute in a meaningful way to the utility or useful life of the product. Performed sloppily, it results in expensive failures. I suppose there's a point on the continuum where a product has been "value engineered" to the extent that it could best be understood as a scam, but this isn't it. I wouldn't necessarily even hold it up as the dumbest thing a marine engine manufacturer has done, electrical design wise.



I would suspect that any decisions made were further clouded by the relatively small space available.



As you appear to have figured out, you can, of course, carve up the PC board and remove the relay, and replace it with something bigger and more reliable. There are some choices on the same footprint that would just drop in, like this 10a relay: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...184012/2397919, but they may sit higher.


You could also connect something larger with long enough leads that you can mount the relay somewhere else e.g. on a nearby gunwale or deck liner. I personally am fond of these still-inexpensive ice cube relays:


https://cdn.automationdirect.com/sta...s/78relays.pdf


I always use the 3 pole ones regardless of my needs which allows me to connect poles in parallel for more current and simplifies my spare parts strategy. Each pole is rated at 15a and 100,000 operations at full load, 10,000,000 operations at no load; in between is in between. It will outlast your engine. There are optional sockets or you can solder straight to the lugs, I've done it both ways.


That will end up being cheaper than replacing the boards the first time, and of course it won't keep failing.

Contacts rated a 5A AC are very different to DC and inductive load !
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Old 09-02-2023, 11:38   #15
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Re: Yanmar Bad design or scam

Having worked on a lot of these things I would like you to show me where the other start relay is ! Please find schematic attached but not the correct instrument panel. Also my point is IF they are so reliable how come I have changed about 5 in the last couple of years and I know many of the charter companies have also ! As I have stated AC and DC ratings differ vastly.
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