Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-05-2019, 15:23   #136
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cornwall, UK
Boat: Endurance 35 Ketch
Posts: 15
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

I rebuilt my Perkins 4108 when it shot a conrod shortly after buying the boat, this was just after I had replaced the raw water cooled TMP gearbox which died 4 hours after I bought the boat. When the TMP gear box started to corrode through again in less than 5 years I was going to replace the box with a PRM box, but due to the ofset on the TMP box, I would have had to lower the Perky by 30mm to allow the proposed PRM box align with the propshaft and I decided that by the time I'd bought a new gear box, had all the expence of pulling out the old engine, mod the engine bearers and then put engine back in with the gear box, I'd have a new gear box tied to a rebuilt but still 35 odd year old Perkins. Given the labour would be about the same cost the extra cost of buying a brand new Engine and gearbox was a worthwhile investment in my book for the pieace of mind it afforded. As I think the best advice I have ever been given is :-
Either don't have an engine at all, or have an engine you know you can rely on when you most need it. The worst thing you can do is have an engine that might or might not work when you most need it
__________________

ferrofan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 16:38   #137
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 654
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
MD17D on my boat.... have invested over the years on lots of spares.... most important and the two that will lead to engine replacement if you don't have them ( as mentioned by an ex MD17 owner in this thread ) are the left handed starter motor and the fresh water circulating pump.
Apart from that carry fuel lift pump, alternator, head and manifold gaskets, assorted other gaskets and stuff including some oil riser thingoes that connect to the rocker arm shafts and that you can no longer find... gift from my friendly long since retired Port Melbourne Volvo man. Seems they can fracture if removed and replaced too often.

Currently need to find the tools required for pulling and replacing the injector sleeves... I feel they should suit quite a few models.. even more modern ones.. so should not be too hard to source.

Diesel mechanics are two a penny... spare parts are not..
The RAN sailing guy probably has injector sleeve tools for a VP 2003 sitting around, he recently did a great job on a head rebuild, you can see it on the YouTube vids.
Send him an email if they fit your engine. I have a 2003 as well, and will take my head to the VP shop if I need new ones fitted.
__________________

olaf hart is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 16:51   #138
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 654
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Horse View Post
I agree Jim, with proper care they should last forever and it was misuse that I was talking about and how that misuse occurs. I can assure you that none of them do it on purpose either. Its done out of ignorance.

Most of the ones I have seen replaced/rebuilt are not high hour engines.

My current boat is on it's 3rd engine. It got its first replacement in 94, and I replaced again when I bought it in 2013 after struggling with the engine for a year and being unable to get proper parts from Perkins for the serial number provided. Not Perkins fault I think.

My buddy has a sister ship. On its second engine.

Another fellow I know had to replace an engine on a Hylas 49. 2000 hrs

I know 3 people who had Westerbeke 33's that needed rebuilding and cost a fortune. All under 2500 hrs. 2 rebuilt and 1 changed to Beta. The Beta is the only happy guy.

I know of 4 Volvo 2003's that died early due to compression problems.

I can only report what I have seen. FWIW most boats up here on Lake Ontario do not see a lot of use except the race boats and they are fewer every year.

It's not like engines are dropping like files but every club and marina gets 1 or 2 a year. In fact just saw a volvo put back into a 32 footer on Tuesday.
Were the VP2003 compression problems valves or rings?
olaf hart is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 17:05   #139
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Boat in Puerto Lucia, Ecuador, Body in SE Australia, Heart in Patagonia....
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 5,690
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by olaf hart View Post
The RAN sailing guy probably has injector sleeve tools for a VP 2003 sitting around, he recently did a great job on a head rebuild, you can see it on the YouTube vids.
Send him an email if they fit your engine. I have a 2003 as well, and will take my head to the VP shop if I need new ones fitted.
Thanks Olaf, yes I have watched those three .... serious boat porn.
He mentions problem with part numbers so I shall get in touch with him.

Engines getting replaced with very low hours ( ^^ further up above ^^)? Yes they are the ones that have mustered 2000 hours in 30 years.... rarely run up to temperature just getting in and out of marina and battery charging. Replaced due to lack of spares and all the bits that hang off the engine needing replacement and being unavailable.

Meanwhile a source of Volvo parts in Oz... www.marineenergy.com.au

I've always had good service from them.
__________________
Simple Celestial https://www.dropbox.com/s/a5blh1rgvi...ation.pdf?dl=0
A little bit about Chile https://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Chile
Some Patagonian cruising notes https://docdro.id/bO63FbL
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 17:15   #140
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 654
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

So, I consider myself an informed consumer on both sides of this argument.

On the boats I re engined, I went for Yanmar and didn’t regret it, apart from the expense.

The one I re engined myself was by far the most cost effective and that engine probably saved our lives in a storm on a lee shore.

The people who benefited most from the re engine jobs were the new owners.

On the boats I rebuilt, I regretted it, but one was a Bukh and the other a Stuart Turner, an engine invented by the devil.

Currently have a RWC VP 2003 and saildrive with around 1500hrs, the PO had a head job done at 1200 hrs because it was overheating, didn’t fix the problem but when I changed the FWC thermostat back to a 140 degree one did..Don’t use the VP dealer service in Melbourne guys....

I am obsessive about maintenance, always run it for at least an hour and load it up, replace the exhaust elbow every three years with a spare cleaned out one, and fix little problems like a mismatched replacement alternator pulley. It has been fine for the last eight years I owned the boat.

A friend re engined his VP2003 at 8500 hrs, a long distance cruiser like Jim, gave me his supply of spares.

I wouldn’t rebuild the engine if it lets go, I have a spare 1200 hr well maintained VP 2030 and saildrive in the shed from the boat of another friend who re engined before heading to the South Pacific, it’s Perkins based so the parts costs are an order of magnitude less than the 2003. To an extent, anyone with a VP saildrive is a captive of The VP dealer if they want an engine replacement, so it pays to have a spare that drops right in.

So I hope I have learned from my past experiences with rebuilds or replacements, take care of my existing engine, don’t waste money on a rebuild if it goes, and plan ahead so I am not a victim of engine guys when I need an urgent replacement
olaf hart is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 19:22   #141
Registered User
 
zboss's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: On a boat
Boat: 1987 Cabo Rico 38 #117 & 2008 Manta 42 #124
Posts: 3,978
Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

So I have a new engine... beta 43... havenít even started it up. Iíve really found the manuals quite lacking even if the service from beta has been good. There is a ton of missing info in the manuals, so even though Iíve been able to figure things out myself or with the help of beta, I shouldnít have to do either one of those things... it should be in the manual.

How do I make sure I seat the cylinders right from the get go? There arenít any guidelines in the manual for RPMs over a number of hours lie you get with a new Yamaha outboard.

Any other advise?

Also, what is a pre Oiler?
zboss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 19:54   #142
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 30,545
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

A pre-Oiler is any form of supplying pressurized oil to the engine prior to start up.
Old days with car motors I pulled the distributor and on a Mopar the oil drive gear and drove the pump from a drill.
On aircraft engines I have a one qt oil can that can be pressurized by shop air and connected to the oil pressure sender hole.

Any engine in my opinion should be first started and run at a high idle, like 1000 RPM or higher for at least 5 min. Higher than idle to ensure the cam is well lubricated for break in, the Cam is by far the highest loaded component in an engine, itís steel on steel.
I then change the oil to get any bead blasting glass or other foreign material that may be there, plus believe it or not but if there is any but microscopic metal to wear off of an engine, it usually happens very quickly.

Iíll cut open the oil filter to look for excess metal, there really shouldnít be any, but a few flakes are acceptable.

Reservice the engine and crank it again, putting it under a small load and ensure there are no leaks and everything is good, no overheating etc.

Then go run her hard, not real hard, but harder than normal cruise. Ideally vary the RPM some and of course the load follows RPM.

A properly put together engine, especially a new engine will seat the rings pretty quickly, in truth in less than an hour.

I wouldnít start Babying the engine as in sustained low RPM cruise for the first 50 hours, where Iíd consider break in complete and Iíd change the oil again and then start Babying her.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 21:06   #143
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 254
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
OK, you know some folks who have had engines that they replaced with low hours. I don't doubt this at all. I do doubt that it is typical over the world of sailing.

Lets see... good friends had a Bukh 36 in their Knot 40. It ran over 10,000 hours. They rebuilt it. It then ran just at 10,000 hours and they replaced it with a "remanufactured" engine from Bukh in Sydney. That engine died after only about 2500 hours. Upon inspection, the "remanufacture" came via a spray can of Bukh paint. But still, the original engine lasted a LONG time. They, BTW did the dreaded run of 60 minutes twice a day to cool down their giant fridge... thus the high hour count. Guess that if they had taken proper care of the engine it would have lasted even longer.

And then there was our own BMW D35. Had 6500 hours on the clock when we sold the boat, running well. Only issues were from raw water cooling, which led to some overheating issues from scale buildup... and which meant that it NEVER got up to proper operating temps, e xcept when it clogged up. Guess that engine would have gone a very long time if it had been FWC and run at 180 instead of 150 F.

And now we have a Nanni/Kubota with over 5 K hours, running well. I expect many more hours to come.

I could go through a list of acquaintances with long lived engines... mostly from the long term cruiser fleet. Really, we are the only yotties that normally put very many hours on engines. The "in and out" guys that you were talking about are not likely to get more than 100 hours a year, so it takes a hell of a long time to run up big hour counts. Often multiple owners are involved and sometimes one or more will be "maintenance free" owners, leading to early demise of their engines.

I've waffled on too long... just trying to say that it is not unreasonable to expect >5k hours from a yacht's auxiliary diesel.

Jim

I think I said I agreed with you.


If you look back at my original post you will see I did not say all motors die early, I merely described why some of them they died early and how it could be prevented, and how it was not all that unusual, at least around here. Most auxillary diesel engine failures are the result of neglect or abuse and it is long term.



Absolutely no reason a Perkins 4236 should not run for 10-15,000 hours and need nothing except basic service and then after unlike most engines today it is completely rebuild-able like new.



I would expect long term cruisers to be able to keep their engines running properly and for a long time.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 21:17   #144
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 254
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboss View Post
So I have a new engine... beta 43... havenít even started it up. Iíve really found the manuals quite lacking even if the service from beta has been good. There is a ton of missing info in the manuals, so even though Iíve been able to figure things out myself or with the help of beta, I shouldnít have to do either one of those things... it should be in the manual.

Yupe... I have to agree 100% with you. It was no different with Yanmar when I put one in.



I did get good information from an engineer at the Kubota parts place in Oakville. He told me that I could run my beta engine all day at 1600 RPM which is the top of the torque curve. He also said I could run it at 2100 all day too. Max RPM on that engine is 2600.



Other than that very scarce with the information. Never saw a boat manual that talked about the auxiliary much either.


Given the cost of these things it is a major oversight.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 21:19   #145
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 254
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
as a marine service provider in what could be described as one of the boating capitol of the world.
My opinion is what people count on .

Quite puffed with yourself I can see. Not sure that makes your opinion any more valid than mine.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 21:19   #146
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 8,089
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Well for those keeping WSHTF in the back of their mind, minimal electronics is the only way to go.

Would you care to share with us your personal experience with diesel engines in boats you have or have owned? Make model, year???
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 21:34   #147
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 8,550
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Horse View Post
Quite puffed with yourself I can see. Not sure that makes your opinion any more valid than mine.
I make a living on my name . If I make a mistake I loose business .
You really don't get it do ya.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 21:36   #148
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 254
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
If you are going to re-engine you should do it whilst mechanical pump engines are still available. Common rail with it's dependence on electronics is not the way to go on boats where reliability is a number 1 issue.

I agree. The other thing I would want to stay away from if possible is a turbo. When the turbo goes you have an engine that will not run above an idle. Not an issue at the dock or if you know its going and take care of it but not a good thing to get as a surprise a long way from home.


When I repowered I had already decided on a Kubota. It was a question of Nanni or Beta. The Nanni had a turbo so it lost.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 21:45   #149
Registered User
 
Dark Horse's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Beneteau Idylle 51
Posts: 254
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
I make a living on my name . If I make a mistake I loose business .
You really don't get it do ya.
Your not special I make my living with my name too. If I make a mistake I get fired or have my contract cancelled. When I look for a new project they ask around about me even before they interview me. All worlds are small.

Fact is most of us know nothing about you, have never met you, and likely never will. You could be doing nothing but blowing smoke here about what you do or you could be the ace star in the marine business.

Regardless it does not give you the right to be condescending or sanctimonious. It is my opinion that you were.

Your offering your opinion, nothing more and it's no better than mine or anyone else's.

Cheers.
Dark Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2019, 22:12   #150
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 8,248
Re: Why do people replace diesel engines in a sailboat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Would you care to share with us your personal experience with diesel engines in boats you have or have owned? Make model, year???
Stu,
This is the Interweb. It is not your experience or qualifications that count. Just make bold, absolute and unsupported statements like no other opinion could be considered less it be considered obviously ridiculous. Then you are gold.
__________________

Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boat, diesel, engine, sail, sailboat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need to Replace Engines Want advise Stargazerroatan Engines and Propulsion Systems 6 21-05-2019 22:00
Which engines can replace a Volvo Penta MD11C Popeye2 Engines and Propulsion Systems 15 23-10-2018 06:27
Lines - To replace, or not to replace? TooCoys General Sailing Forum 31 25-04-2017 13:32
How often do people really replace their rigging holding mast videorov General Sailing Forum 40 22-05-2013 13:24
Why So Many Boats with Rebuilt / New Engines ? headhertz Engines and Propulsion Systems 42 29-09-2011 13:19

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.