Universal 25XP not starting...bleeding?

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Did you crank at full throttle as I suggested?

x2 for Sailmonkeys suggestion,
Also dont worry about glowplugs until you get fuel coming out injector pipes.
It's never going to run if the injectors are not squirting.
This is not to dismiss the glowplugsr importance on a low compression engine.
Other owners said they are vital but your problems started with a fuel or air problem.


Make sure all fuel line & filter connections are tight.
Sinnerman has posted a good vid for OP


Keep trying you'll get there in the end

[smosh]

thanks, everyone. I did try with the throttle wide open, and got some drips of fuel. She attempted to start...caught a little bit, but didn't run.

Re: the Kubota video...that's what I thought I was looking for...spurts. This is definitely not spurts. Tiny drips....seeping, almost.

Symptoms of a bad injector pump? I thought it was mechanical, so it would seem odd to just fail like that.

[Compass790]

Its unusual ( but not unknown) for injector pump to fail. It is mechanical. It could be blocked with a bit of fuel hose if they are real old or I've even seen thread tape in an injection pump. Air or blockage much more likely to be the problem than mechanical pump failure but if its had water in it all bets are off. The plungers can jam.

I'd really try for air removal a fair bit first before blaming the IP. Is the 12v lift pump operating properly. You can try gravity feeding filtered fuel into the injection pump if the 12v lift pump is dodgy.
Hope its not the injection pump for your sake. If you want it tested take it to a tractor injection place that does kubotas as that will likely be cheaper.
No offence meant but it doesnt sound to me like you should be attempting stripping down your injection pump.

[keyspc]

Somebody has to say it.
"at some point in there I dump in 2 fresh gallons of diesel"
You might need some more fuel in tank! mine starts acting up if under two inches in tank. Stick a yardstick or dowel in there to see just how much is really in there. Also quite possible fuel pick up in bottom of tank is gunked up and not letting full flow.

[smosh]

Originally Posted by Compass790

Its unusual ( but not unknown) for injector pump to fail. It is mechanical. It could be blocked with a bit of fuel hose if they are real old or I've even seen thread tape in an injection pump. Air or blockage much more likely to be the problem than mechanical pump failure but if its had water in it all bets are off. The plungers can jam.

I'd really try for air removal a fair bit first before blaming the IP. Is the 12v lift pump operating properly. You can try gravity feeding filtered fuel into the injection pump if the 12v lift pump is dodgy.
Hope its not the injection pump for your sake. If you want it tested take it to a tractor injection place that does kubotas as that will likely be cheaper.
No offence meant but it doesnt sound to me like you should be attempting stripping down your injection pump.

Ha - I have zero intention of pulling the pump apart and rebuilding. If it were bolt-on/swap, that would be different.

The lift pump -seems- to be working well...it definitely spurts from the bleed valve.

Service departments at boatyards here are already booked well into the summer....season is short here. I've got a referral to a land based diesel service who fixed my friends M25. The call is in...

[smosh]

Originally Posted by keyspc

Somebody has to say it.
"at some point in there I dump in 2 fresh gallons of diesel"
You might need some more fuel in tank! mine starts acting up if under two inches in tank. Stick a yardstick or dowel in there to see just how much is really in there. Also quite possible fuel pick up in bottom of tank is gunked up and not letting full flow.

it turned out that 2g was added to probably 8-9g. It's just that at the time of adding we weren't sure how much fuel was in it.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by smosh

Ha - I have zero intention of pulling the pump apart and rebuilding. If it were bolt-on/swap, that would be different.

The lift pump -seems- to be working well...it definitely spurts from the bleed valve.

Service departments at boatyards here are already booked well into the summer....season is short here. I've got a referral to a land based diesel service who fixed my friends M25. The call is in...

Yea I figured your season would be short up near Canada.
The Injection pump can be swapped but the timing needs to be checked after. They are expensive to replace but if it only needs cleaning it shouldnt be too bad.
I dont know if you found a service ( workshop ) manual in your research but they are essential if you want to do engine work yourself.
I'll be interested to read what the tech finds is the problem.

[Stu Jackson]

[QUOTE=smosh;3406542]Ha - I have zero intention of pulling the pump apart and rebuilding. If it were bolt-on/swap, that would be different.

The lift pump -seems- to be working well...it definitely spurts from the bleed valve.

........................./QUOTE]


Is the bleed valve you refer to the infamous "knurled knob?" If so, I have never seen fuel coming out of mine. Perhaps that's your issue and where an air leak may be.


I was WRONG about not cracking the injectors, some do. While not specific to your issue, this is one discussion I found:


https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9948.0.html


Good luck.

[sinnerman]

Ref Stu's question on the knurled knob, my Cat 30 just has a wrench fitting (like the filter) that you loosen, let fuel leak out, then tighten. It does not return the bled fuel to the tank.

The injector pumps have 03 independent pistons, one for each cylinder, riding on a camshaft, so unless the fuel passage feeding all of them in the injector pump is clogged, then at least one or more of the injectors should be providing fuel.

One possibility is a disconnected or broken governor / throttle spring. These springs pull the internal rack in the injector pump in the direction of "more fuel". If they have jumped off or have broken (springs "do" break) then the rack may be stuck in the low/off fuel position.

The springs sound "scary" but they sell replacements and they can be changed by removing the lever covers. They are TRICKY to install, however but If you are a cardiologist, or tie your own fishing flies, you will probably find changing them a piece of cake... LOL

Here is a video of the springs being installed on a Kubota (aka Universal's brother):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odd-41rclnE

There are other videos on YT as well.

As someone stated, if you replace the HP injector pump (if it indeed is bad), then the engine timing needs to be adjusted. This is done by installing different thickness shims between the injector pump and the engine block to adjust the height of the pump above the cam shaft which drives the injector pistons.

A thinner shim brings the pistons closer to the cam shaft so they start pumping earlier (advancing the timing). Thicker shims move the pistons away from the camshaft and they start pumping later (retarding the timing). This is best done by a diesel mechanic who has done this before AND has the different shims.

If you are reinstalling the same HP pump you removed, then reusing the old shims should be fine....

Cheers

[smosh]

[QUOTE=Stu Jackson;3406624]

Originally Posted by smosh

Ha - I have zero intention of pulling the pump apart and rebuilding. If it were bolt-on/swap, that would be different.

The lift pump -seems- to be working well...it definitely spurts from the bleed valve.

........................./QUOTE]


Is the bleed valve you refer to the infamous "knurled knob?" If so, I have never seen fuel coming out of mine. Perhaps that's your issue and where an air leak may be.


I was WRONG about not cracking the injectors, some do. While not specific to your issue, this is one discussion I found:


https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9948.0.html


Good luck.

Hm. That's an interesting point. If I'm getting a stream of fuel out of the Knurled Nut (I have a nut, not a knob) where it should not be, and NOT getting it out of the pipes further down the line, where it should be, maybe it's a blockage in the pump. The pressure from the lift pump needs to go somewhere....Knurled Nut might be the only place.

[sinnerman]

Another thing to check:
if you have a round (cylindrical) Facett fuel pump, it has an internal screen filter which most people never clean. You access it by removing the pump bottom.... (it comes out for cleaning..)

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by sinnerman

Another thing to check:
if you have a round (cylindrical) Facett fuel pump, it has an internal screen filter which most people never clean. You access it by removing the pump bottom.... (it comes out for cleaning..)

Our D950 Kubota genset (Same engine) has a square pump, but still has the screen.
Pump replaced a week ago after it died

New pump , same as old one $16 https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/154000585527

[Compass790]

Sinnermans suggestion in post #39 sounds like a definitely possibility too.
Fuel rack not operating properly will cause yr symptoms.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by sinnerman

Another thing to check:
if you have a round (cylindrical) Facett fuel pump, it has an internal screen filter which most people never clean. You access it by removing the pump bottom.... (it comes out for cleaning..)

I was about to make the same comment. I've got a M-12, very different engine but my understanding is Catalina used the same electric pump on a lot of installations.

Getting to the point I was doing some reading before servicing my engine a couple of weeks ago and thought "what the Hell, it can't hurt to check." I was appalled at the mess on that screen.

The fun part is I'd swapped the fuel filter last year, decanted the fuel out of the filter for a look see, looked good, went on with life. Looked at the screen this year and found a very ugly mess, but again the fuel in the filter looked just fine.

[sinnerman]

Catalina Direct (and others) sell thefuel filter screen and gasket as maintenance parts