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Old 06-02-2020, 15:39   #16
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
FWIW, Rudolph Diesel designed the engine with the intent that it would run on vegetable oil.
And any engine with the old style pintle injectors can run on just about any combustible oil. Modern diesels will not

We used to be able to run the detroit diesels on any oil. This allowed the military to qcquire fuel when primary infrastructure was not available

However wear, soot and often component failure was accelerated.
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Old 06-02-2020, 15:41   #17
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

That's nice but frankly wrong. It requires much more energy to reprocess old oil than to refine new. So your embodied carbon footprint is higher

However recycling metals, ferrous and non ferrous, requires a magnitude less energy than refining ore. That is good for the environment.

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Using renewable diesel from sources that are are post-use like waste vegetable and other industrial oils saves carbon because you are not pulling new carbon out of the ground, but cycling carbon that is already in the atmosphere. Like all biofuels, the carbon benefits and other ecological benefits depend on the source materials. The sources we have here in the West, and in Europe, are not only carbon beneficial, but the stuff burns BETTER in our engines. Has higher cetane, and doesn't have impurities like soot that carbonize our systems and stink.

The pessimism of billknny may be in jest, but no one can argue that pulling more fossil fuels out of the ground and putting it in the atmosphere, along with the impurities and sulphur and such, is doing our planet any good. From what I can see, the renewable diesel being made is sourced from carbon that has already been in the atmosphere. There is much written on this subject. I am not an expert. I encourage people to read about renewable diesel and how it is made, sourced and why it is being used so successfully in states like CA and OR for fleets. I give links on my blog to some articles.
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Old 06-02-2020, 16:02   #18
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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Biodiesel or any form of recovered oil reformulated diesel is not better for the environment. That's marketing bs. But plenty of non technical folks sleep better at night because of their preceived planet goodness.

Also I wouldn't let most so called bio diesels anywhere near my fuel pump or injectors. It is many years since I've conducted lab analysis on fuels so there may be some better options.

The US Army, for example, maintains a vast refining capability around their diesel needs. They do it for strategic reasons.
Where exactly does that vast refining capability exist? In fact the U.S. Army (and all the services) get their fuel through DLA contracts that are let on the open market. If the Army refines any diesel it's very small scale demo projects for renewable and biodiesel.
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Old 06-02-2020, 16:12   #19
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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That's nice but frankly wrong. It requires much more energy to reprocess old oil than to refine new. So your embodied carbon footprint is higher

However recycling metals, ferrous and non ferrous, requires a magnitude less energy than refining ore. That is good for the environment.
It's easy to speak in certainties and declaratives online, and it takes time to approach the subtlety that is usually closer to the truth. There is nothing "wrong" about saying that the feedstock used for bio fuels makes all the difference. Of course raping the land in SE Asia is atrocious, and it is equally horrible that they do so in Brazil to raise cattle. We are killing our planet with a billion cuts, certainly, no argument there, and to our own ultimate demise. But using fats and oils from the feedstock readily available in North America that is post consumer or post-industrial is what the better companies do. As I understand it, they can use any carbon source for the fuel, including pulp mill slag and such.

As for it taking more energy to process than fossil fuel, I can't speak to that, but I'm sure it still depends on the source of that energy. People much more knowledgeable than myself are able to say that with the proper feedstock, the renewable diesel is a net gain for a carbon footprint. Go ahead and read for yourself. And my point here, again, is that it is better for your diesel, aside from the environment. It meets exactly the same standards as fossil diesel. Exactly the same. And has higher cetane, better combustion, cleaner in and out of the engine.

This discussion really centers around what we can do as boaters to reduce our carbon footprint. I'm hoping there are few here who are "throw up your hands" about it.
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Old 06-02-2020, 16:22   #20
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

I presume we're talking about Propel HPR or something very similar. I ran my Passat TDi and Universal 5424 on it for a while. Unlike biodiesel, which can be as crude as filtering the larger crud out of used vegetable oil, this is a highly-refined product using the oils as a base stock to the process (look up Neste Oil's process).

It has virtually no smell. If you get it on your fingers or clothes, it's noticeable from the point of view that they don't stink!

Diesels run beautifully on it, with lower emissions like NOX, particulates, etc. More power too.

The only problem is that lubricity is a bit marginal, but that's also true of currently available ULSD, so you might want to consider adding lubricity additive to either.
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Old 06-02-2020, 16:26   #21
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

That's the stuff MarkSF. I still have questions about lubricity too, and am trying to find more concrete data. Fleets in CA are using it straight and Caterpillar has endorsed it for use straight in their diesels, so there must be something in it giving lubrication despite having no or lower sulphur than even ULSD.

In my case, I blended in a few gallons of biodiesel just in case. I'll probably run around 5% bio with the renewable until I get confirmation reliably that the renewable has good lubricity.
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Old 06-02-2020, 16:35   #22
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

You can make a better diesel by refining unsorted plastic waste. There are a bunch of home systems and Japan is doing it on an industrial scale. The diesel is reported to burn cleaner and have more power than today's current diesel. Lots of Utube videos. No idea on the cost.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:03   #23
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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Try calculating the amount of land it takes to grow that biodiesel. And then extend it to how much land it would take if everybody did it. Your “carbon neutral” fuel just destroyed all the forests in North America.

But if it makes you happy in your ignorance....

maybe you should try reading and understanding the post before commenting... but if your happy in your ignorance...
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:13   #24
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
Try calculating the amount of land it takes to grow that biodiesel. And then extend it to how much land it would take if everybody did it. Your “carbon neutral” fuel just destroyed all the forests in North America.

But if it makes you happy in your ignorance....
If in place of corn currently slated for ethanol production, we grew industrial HEMP, the fiber and oils would boost America's Energy Independence greatly.
Try to sell that to our current Admistration of Consumption, you'll fail.
HOWEVER, We Change that Bad Attitude and we're going to be so much better off.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:24   #25
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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If in place of corn currently slated for ethanol production, we grew industrial HEMP, the fiber and oils would boost America's Energy Independence greatly.
Try to sell that to our current Admistration of Consumption, you'll fail.
HOWEVER, We Change that Bad Attitude and we're going to be so much better off.
...And if we can get rid of the ethanol mandate which is little more than a vote-buying policy that is perpetuated from administration to administration, we will be much better off. This policy is one of the worst insults to the American people. Take away the mandate and let the free market determine if ethanol is viable as a fuel.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:05   #26
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Biodiesel or any form of recovered oil reformulated diesel is not better for the environment. That's marketing bs. But plenty of non technical folks sleep better at night because of their preceived planet goodness....

I think you need to look into this more. The cause of climate change is moving carbon out of the million+ year old ground deposits by burning fossil fuel. Once on the surface, carbon moves between plants, animals, ocean and atmosphere relatively quickly and planting trees, for example, does little to affect the carbon in the air since when they die any trapped carbon goes back to the atmosphere. We need to keep fossil fuel in the ground!. Yes, cutting trees down is a problem, but not really a climate problem, more a problem from destroying the homes of animals like the great ape. However, the OP said the feedstock was reclaimed/used oil. So no trees are being cut down at all to generate oil for the OP's product. That was done for it's first use, so we aught to get the most out of it!
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:37   #27
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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Originally Posted by bwindrope View Post
Using renewable diesel from sources that are are post-use like waste vegetable and other industrial oils saves carbon because you are not pulling new carbon out of the ground, but cycling carbon that is already in the atmosphere. ...
Unless your supplier actually does that (which I sincerely doubt) this is just an agreeable fiction. But more to the point, nearly all food waste oils go into animal feed, where they also reduce food demand. So using them as fuel actually has no benefit. None of the waste grease is discarded, and in fact, restaurants are paid well for it.

However, I think you will find that using oils contaminated with tallow in northern climates is very, very risky. The stuff gels in cold weather. So the base will nearly always be virgin soy or rape seed oil.

That's just the facts of it. It's zero sum. I have done process design work for recycling waste oil to animal feed and making biodeisel from virgin products.


[I'm not anti-biodiesel. I really don't care. But since no recyclable grease is discarded, we can't count that as a benefit. The grease recycling industry is far older than biodiesel in the mainstream.]
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Old 07-02-2020, 14:07   #28
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

Since my fuel tanks were cleaned out before installation and are completely empty right now. I would be interested to know how to source this.



As I detest the smell of the fuel. and also the smell of the exhaust, Currently there is no diesel smell in the boat unless I open and sniff around a locker where I believe that a tank to run a diesel stove was previously stored decades ago. Perhaps a small amount was spilled whilst fulling it anyway negligible odor.


For preference If I had enough lifetime left and the facilities I would have preferred to have built, and installed a steam engine system. and enjoyed atmospheric pressure combustion. or very close to it. minus the smell.



So without getting hung up on the environmental debate. which is too hard to win especially as It is 320 miles to Portland, Oregon. I could burn compressed natural gas to get there. but that is extra fire none the less.


The obvious difficulty here is the supply chain. IF Point Roberts Marina could be convinced to install a storage tank for John Carson Oils to fill. boat owners on both sided of the USA/ Canada border could gain reasonable access' But what would the cost per gallon or liter Be?
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Old 07-02-2020, 14:13   #29
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

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Originally Posted by coastalexplorer View Post
Since my fuel tanks were cleaned out before installation and are completely empty right now. I would be interested to know how to source this.



As I detest the smell of the fuel. and also the smell of the exhaust, Currently there is no diesel smell in the boat unless I open and sniff around a locker where I believe that a tank to run a diesel stove was previously stored decades ago. Perhaps a small amount was spilled whilst fulling it anyway negligible odor.


For preference If I had enough lifetime left and the facilities I would have preferred to have built, and installed a steam engine system. and enjoyed atmospheric pressure combustion. or very close to it. minus the smell.



So without getting hung up on the environmental debate. which is too hard to win especially as It is 320 miles to Portland, Oregon. I could burn compressed natural gas to get there. but that is extra fire none the less.


The obvious difficulty here is the supply chain. IF Point Roberts Marina could be convinced to install a storage tank for John Carson Oils to fill. boat owners on both sided of the USA/ Canada border could gain reasonable access' But what would the cost per gallon or liter Be?
I agree that the lack of diesel smell alone should make this an obvious choice. No matter anyone's professed love for fossil fuels is there anyone who can say with a straight face that they actually enjoy the smell of diesel? I can't stand it!
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Old 07-02-2020, 14:27   #30
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Re: Switched to Renewable Diesel!

Just because it is made from chicken fat, exactly why is this stuff any better for the environment?
Still puts same amount of CO2 into atmosphere when burned.
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