Perkins 4108 starter bad?

[Bycrick]

Thanks for the final update. Another data point for my score sheet. For all the suggestions about X shorted to Y, I’ve never seen a boat starter motor with a pure electrical failure. Something loose, broken, corroded, jammed, bent, yes. But shorted windings? Never in 40 years.

[Boatyarddog]

Nice...
Would have been nice to get a definitive diagnosis.
Happy it's working.��
You covered the bases though.

[boxxer]

As noted above try using the screw driver across the solenoid contacts. If it starts the wiring should be ok to the battery if not it’s notgood. The solenoid may still be a problem. It may also require a relay in the ignition wires to the starter. I had to add one on my 4108. Good luck!!

[Rive]

I would check your ground wire to the block, It was a common problem with my perkins.

[Poche]

I was in the same predicament for a month similar to you. Finally found a battery terminal connection that had split but still looked normal from the top.
It didn't hurt to clean every connection.
Solenoid was good. Just wasn't getting juice.

[Coginchaug]

Check the bolts that secure the case. I have twice had to tighten mine when the starter failed to spin. Easy to check and fix if that's the problem.

[Searles]

One of the black buttons will be the pre heat or cold start ,the outher maybe the solenoid stop ,if that sticks ,no start ,could be stuck starter solenoid or worn or stuck starter brushes ,all are simple checks ,hydtolock is not simple ,unlikely if the engine is plumbed correctly .⛵️👍 just a few checks

[NNBill]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

Update -

Today I am switching ground from engine to busbar with new cable.

I would run the ground cable directly from the engine block to the start battery, to eliminate the possibilities of the two additional connections at the bus bar going bad, the engine to bus bar connection and the bus bar to battery cable connection. Then verify you have a good heavy ground wire betwen the start battery(s) and the house battery(s).

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

VICTORY!!!!!

So here is the the final update. -

The engine is running! I got a call from the Starter repair shop and they said the starter was good, but there was an odd thing - the solenoid is held on with two bolts and a third bolt goes through the "lever" that shoves the starter pawl /gear - that bolt was BENT. I talked to a marine mechanic who was here on the dock today and he said that could indicate it got stuck (que the quote!)



The repair shop said this starter works. They inspected and put the starter back together with new bolts for only $20 - so shout out to A-Alternator and Starter in Kemah Texas.

He recommended checking and replacing: new battery, new cables, new switch. - just like all of you said. I told him the battery was good - he said check it anyway (It's good).

So I went and bought all new cables from battery to switch, switch to starter, and engine block to ground. She runs!

And here I was thinking how great it was to hear the final outcome, complete with the details.
Yet somehow there are multiple posts offering the same "advice" that was put forward early in the piece and tried and /or rejected by the OP. (thanks so much for the final update ).
Don't people read the thread before jumping in with their opinions??

Rant over, thanks for your attention.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

And here I was thinking how great it was to hear the final outcome, complete with the details.
Yet somehow there are multiple posts offering the same "advice" that was put forward early in the piece and tried and /or rejected by the OP. (thanks so much for the final update ).
Don't people read the thread before jumping in with their opinions??

Rant over, thanks for your attention.

Nope!

[captchetco]

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

AHHHH...I could have hydrolock! A term I've only heard and never discussed...Thanks! Now to research how to see if I do have that and how to fix it...

A hydrolock would create a major power draw when you try the starter. So would any other blockage of the motor to turn. It is most likely an interruption in the electric power in the starter system. I would first try rigging a jumper direct from the Battery to the starter and, carefully push it briefly quickly and firmly against the solinoid battery connection You will also need a short temporary jumper wire from the solinoid batt terminal to the solinoid connection from the "ignition" switch. There will be sparks. If that doesn't turn it over, or scare you enough you don't want to go further, then do the same to the lug on the starter motor to see if it makes it turn. If step one doesn't work, but step two does, its either the connections between the battery and solinoid, or the solinoid itself. Carefully examine all the connections first. It happens sometimes when you are working with or around wires, that you can pull the wire out of its terminal. Even if it is not visibly out, it can be loose enough not to make adequate contact.
If neither test makes it turn, and all connections are good, it will be necessary to pull the starter. Not difficult if you have access. TIP: wrap a belt around the starter, ahead of the middle. It will make it much easier to lift the starter up and around the exhaust manifold. When the wires are free, and three bolts are out, ease the starter back out of its hole that engages the flywheel, then lift it up around the manifold and hoses.

I would have a fire extinguisher within grasp while doing all this, and be sure to connect the wires to the starter before reconnecting the battery cable. Negative cable last.

While you have the starter out, before and after it is repaired, clean it up, and make sure the solinoid is tightly fastened, both the wires and the base fasteners. Clean the wire terminals. Clean and lubricate the "Bendix" which engages the starter to the flywheel. Look for tooth wear and replace if worn or chipped.

If taking it to a shop, consider having them replace the starter shaft bushings and for sure, the brushes. Also note whether their is a lubrication point on the shaft housing end. Older models had them, and they need a few drops of oil every 6 months.

[Uncle Bob]

Ahh, ain't comprehension and literacy great.

[Wotname]

Hey Uncle Bob - another one

[Mickeyrouse]

If you determine the starter motor is bad, almost any starter motor shop can repair it for a fraction of what one will cost from Westerbeke. And a replacement is most likely available from that same shop that isn’t “marine.” I replaced my Westerbeke 55 starter a couple weeks back for $179 from a local shop. Westerbeke wants about $500 for one painted red.

[GrowleyMonster]

Usually an automotive or industrial starter will be just fine for an identical marine diesel. They are generally closed case, non ventilated. Nevertheless if you are an overabundance of caution type guy, go with true marine starter.

OP, I am happy to hear your starter is just fine, and you found your problem. So it happened once, it will happen again. Yes, a complete spare starter is excellent to have onboard. Not just a spare solenoid. Have care when ordering, though. There were a LOT of different starter configurations used on 4-108 and 4-107 engines. Different number of teeth, diameter of pinion gear, length of pinion gear, length of travel, angle of nose housing, etc. I would actually take the starter in to a shop, and order. There are a lot of variables to get right. I went through FOUR starters replacing my old one on my 4-107 Westerbeast. And it wasn't any fun, because it was nearly impossible to find room for my hands the way the engine was shoehorned down into the keel.

Like I was saying before I distracted myself, you will eventually have cable or connector problems again. I generally cut mine at least two inches over, so I can chop off the lugs and crimp new ones on. A supply of lugs SIZED FOR YOUR CABLE, and some sort of crimper, is a must for your spares cabinet. I like the little hydraulic ones in the bright yellow case (don't remember the brand and I am not on the boat) made in China and all over Amazon. The hammer type is nice and compact, too, if you have something to use for an anvil. Soldering is optional but your first few attempts will probably end badly. Slide a nice long piece of heat shrink tubing up the cable before you put the lug on. Tinning the lug is a good idea. Tinning the wire has both pros and cons. I don't tin the wire. IF the lugs are closed, I like to secure them by their tips in a bench vise and melt some solder in them and keep it melted, then preheat the cable end, with vise grips used as a heat sink, then stick the wire in, then power crimp and then reheat until solder melts on the outside of the lug.That may be overthinking but it's how I do. If the cable fits nice and tight without crimping I just melt the solder in the lug and stuff the preheated cable in there. Copper of course conducts heat very efficiently, and so you will likely melt some insulation. The heat shrink will cover that.

A little grease on your lugs and terminals will help prevent corrosion.

About 12 feet of each red and black cable sized properly for main battery cable or start circuit cable is also a good spare to have. Proper tinned marine cable can be expensive. If you are a real cheapo like me you can use welding cable. It is extremely easy to work with, very flexible, but is NOT marine grade so keep that in mind. If you use welding cable you have to make sure it can't vibrate or rub on something and chafe through the insulation. But it will get you home.

There is a lot of controversy I see, over opening and closing the raw water intake. Me, I am in the habit of always closing the seacock when I shut down the engine, and only opening it after I get combustion. If it isn't needed, it isn't open, and if the engine isn't making heat, it isn't needed. Usually it won't hurt a thing to leave it open all the time. Usually. Usually just isn't good enough for me. It would be like me being usually sober enough to drive. Or my bilge pumps usually working okay. Not saying it is poor seamanship to leave it open, but I don't leave mine open. YMMV.