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Old 02-12-2020, 10:12   #16
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

I had the same symptoms as you. I suspected blow by. I have removed my engine to work on it. I have the pistons out. And as the French say, ''wall la'', one piston has broken rings and broken lands. So, I need a new piston, rings all around, essentially, I'm going to do a top end rebuild.

Good luck.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:24   #17
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Originally Posted by Toomuchboattime View Post
Long time reader of cruisers forum. Glad to be a member now!

I've been renovating a 1975 Formosa 41, with decent luck so far. She's equipped with a Perkins 4.154 45 hp diesel. I fitted the engine with a new exhaust system, new hoses, had the injectors rebuilt and for the last few months, she's run like a champ. Motored 5 hours pretty recently with no issues. Went to start the motor yesterday and she was hard to start, which is not usually an issue. Turned the motor over in 10 second increments and it seemed like maybe 1 of the cylindars was firing. Ran really rough then died. Opened the engine compartment to find it covered in oil. Lots of oil. Took the cap off the air intake and ran the engine for a second... long enough to see oil absolutely spout, I mean pour, out of the breather tube. I haven't changed the oil recently, so no overfilling there. Checked the oil dipstick and it was covered in oil halfway up the stick. Pretty sure that's not good. No foam or white color to the oil- as black as can be which surprised me. Any ideas here? At first I thought maybe the intercooler went and antifreeze made it into the oil pan raising the oil level? Blown head gasket? Any advice is greatly appreciated!
It sounds like you may have a sump full of diesel. You may have an issue with your new exhaust system allowing water back into the engine? Did you change the routing at all with the new system?
I had a similar thing with a Perkins and after many hours of trouble shooting we took the rocker cover off and a push rod had popped off the rocker! That cylinder was then forcing raw fuel past the piston into the sump, because the valves weren't opening. As best we could tell, the aft cylinder had gotten water into it at some point, when I started the engine the pressure of water forced the push rod off the rocker. Then I ran the engine for hours not knowing.

As mentioned, it could also be a broken lift pump diaphragm or a seal in the injection pump allowing fuel in the sump.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:31   #18
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Originally Posted by Toomuchboattime View Post
Long time reader of cruisers forum. Glad to be a member now!

I've been renovating a 1975 Formosa 41, with decent luck so far. She's equipped with a Perkins 4.154 45 hp diesel. I fitted the engine with a new exhaust system, new hoses, had the injectors rebuilt and for the last few months, she's run like a champ. Motored 5 hours pretty recently with no issues. Went to start the motor yesterday and she was hard to start, which is not usually an issue. Turned the motor over in 10 second increments and it seemed like maybe 1 of the cylindars was firing. Ran really rough then died. Opened the engine compartment to find it covered in oil. Lots of oil. Took the cap off the air intake and ran the engine for a second... long enough to see oil absolutely spout, I mean pour, out of the breather tube. I haven't changed the oil recently, so no overfilling there. Checked the oil dipstick and it was covered in oil halfway up the stick. Pretty sure that's not good. No foam or white color to the oil- as black as can be which surprised me. Any ideas here? At first I thought maybe the intercooler went and antifreeze made it into the oil pan raising the oil level? Blown head gasket? Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Oil floats. Is it possible water is in the bottom of your sump and you hadn't run long enough to see a froth?
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Old 02-12-2020, 15:17   #19
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Peter, Where did you find a raw water pump for a 4236 for less than $600? I rebuilt mine because of the high cost of this pump. The mechanical seal alone was more than $50. The fresh water pump was about $70 as it is not a boat specific part.
TAD diesel. As I recall, was around $225. This was 2 years ago. I'll check my receipts. My old one was in fine shape but the boat had sat for a few years and I was headed 500nms nonstop so replaced everything.

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Old 02-12-2020, 15:18   #20
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

If your fuel lines allow, you can take the lift pump on the engine block and then manually pump it. If fuel comes out the back then the problem is resolved.
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Old 02-12-2020, 15:42   #21
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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TAD diesel. As I recall, was around $225. This was 2 years ago. I'll check my receipts. My old one was in fine shape but the boat had sat for a few years and I was headed 500nms nonstop so replaced everything.

Peter
I can't find my receipts, but am finding the Jabsco pump replacement for around $400 online. One pump was expensive - I thought it was the coolant circulation pump. But maybe it was the seawater pump. I don't remember exactly but I know it wasn't $600. I didn't pay much more than that for all three (lift, circ, and seawater pumps)

https://marinepumpdirect.com/jabsco-pump-3270-0001/

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Old 02-12-2020, 17:48   #22
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Originally Posted by billgewater View Post
If your fuel lines allow, you can take the lift pump on the engine block and then manually pump it. If fuel comes out the back then the problem is resolved.

Thats a good idea, I usually strip the pump & hold the diaphragm up to the light but your plan is quicker


mvweebles the raw water pump is always the expensive one.

jack c did you buy a perkins mechanical seal? I bought a generic one from a place that specialises in them for $10kiwi.

It wasnt off a perkins AFAIK but perkins probably dont make theirs anyway
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Old 02-12-2020, 20:01   #23
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

If not the lift pump, my vote is excessive crankcase pressure, broken rings, a hole in a piston, cracked head can cause this.
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Old 17-02-2021, 22:16   #24
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

Sorry for the delay in update here! Got called up to SF for work for two months.
Just got back to work on the old girl, located the oil pump handle, gave it a go and ta da! 4 gallons of saltwater pumped out of the oil sump until i got to oil.

My first thought is, I've had 4 gallons of saltwater sitting in my engine for two months. Should I even bother diagnosing the issue, or accept that I'll be replacing the motor?

If anyone out there thinks it may be salvageable, what could cause that much water in the sump? Backflow from the muffler? A few folks mentioned the raw water oil cooler- could it leak that much? I did notice that my My coolant reservoir looks low, but didn't smell or taste coolant in the salt water (yeah, i tasted it haha). Blown head gasket? First thing I'm going to do is through a wrench on the front and see if it even turns over. If it does, any an alll assistance is appreciated!
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Old 17-02-2021, 22:40   #25
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Originally Posted by Compass790 View Post
Thats a good idea, I usually strip the pump & hold the diaphragm up to the light but your plan is quicker


mvweebles the raw water pump is always the expensive one.

jack c did you buy a perkins mechanical seal? I bought a generic one from a place that specialises in them for $10kiwi.

It wasnt off a perkins AFAIK but perkins probably dont make theirs anyway
I bought a Jabsco seal in the USA from a place that buys old stock.

I have now learned that the seal is generic. Used in all sorts of pumps.
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Old 17-02-2021, 22:49   #26
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Originally Posted by Toomuchboattime View Post
Sorry for the delay in update here! Got called up to SF for work for two months.
Just got back to work on the old girl, located the oil pump handle, gave it a go and ta da! 4 gallons of saltwater pumped out of the oil sump until i got to oil.

My first thought is, I've had 4 gallons of saltwater sitting in my engine for two months. Should I even bother diagnosing the issue, or accept that I'll be replacing the motor?

If anyone out there thinks it may be salvageable, what could cause that much water in the sump? Backflow from the muffler? A few folks mentioned the raw water oil cooler- could it leak that much? I did notice that my My coolant reservoir looks low, but didn't smell or taste coolant in the salt water (yeah, i tasted it haha). Blown head gasket? First thing I'm going to do is through a wrench on the front and see if it even turns over. If it does, any an alll assistance is appreciated!
Raw water oil cooler is the likely suspect. If you have not circulated the "oil" by running the engine since the water entered, then the water may have been limited to the sump. Oil sits on top of water so maybe only the oil pan and maybe oil pump is effected.

I doubt the engine is seized. Turn over the engine just enough to check for seizing. The oil pump draws from the bottom of the sump, so don't pump water through the engine by excessive turning over the engine.

Check if your engine seacock was open. If it was then you probably were syphoning sea water through the oil cooler.
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Old 17-02-2021, 23:26   #27
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Raw water oil cooler is the likely suspect. If you have not circulated the "oil" by running the engine since the water entered, then the water may have been limited to the sump. Oil sits on top of water so maybe only the oil pan and maybe oil pump is effected.

I doubt the engine is seized. Turn over the engine just enough to check for seizing. The oil pump draws from the bottom of the sump, so don't pump water through the engine by excessive turning over the engine.

Check if your engine seacock was open. If it was then you probably were siphoning seawater through the oil cooler.

Thanks, Jack C. I didn't turn the engine over, but I did remove the injectors. When I pulled the last one, Cylinder 1 (or the one closest to the belts) it fountained seawater. Doesn't seem to have any coolant in it. I tried sucking the water out with a hose and it kept refilling. Engine seacock was open, so I'm guessing this is the siphoning you're talking about.

I need to pick up a socket large enough to turn the crank nut in the morning, but any advice on what to do, considering there was saltwater in the cylinder and I'm guessing some rust would go with that?

Seeming pretty likely it was, as you suggest, the oil cooler.
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Old 17-02-2021, 23:35   #28
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

Sorry for the newb question, but is the raw water oil cooler part of the entire heat exchanger unit, and the whole thing needs to be replaced, or is it a separate part? Thanks in advance!
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Old 18-02-2021, 00:03   #29
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Thanks, Jack C. I didn't turn the engine over, but I did remove the injectors. When I pulled the last one, Cylinder 1 (or the one closest to the belts) it fountained seawater. Doesn't seem to have any coolant in it. I tried sucking the water out with a hose and it kept refilling. Engine seacock was open, so I'm guessing this is the siphoning you're talking about.

I need to pick up a socket large enough to turn the crank nut in the morning, but any advice on what to do, considering there was saltwater in the cylinder and I'm guessing some rust would go with that?

Seeming pretty likely it was, as you suggest, the oil cooler.
Have you closed the seacock? It's strange that the cylinder keeps refilling if you have emptied the crankcase of water. Perhaps the crankcase is again full of water and #1 piston is all the way down and water is rising around the rings.

Or maybe water is trapped above the cylinder. It may have risen slowly through the rings? But this would not explain refilling.

With the injectors out you can turn the engine over by turning the alternator or water pump nuts and applying tension to the belts.

Most important is to get the water out and flush with oil to prevent rusting. Also the injector that was in water should be disassembled and lubricated with diesel fuel.

You may also want to take off the valve cover and pour oil around the valves.

If the engine is seized, don't force it. Let the oil soak in. You may want to use PB Blaster or WD-40 in the seized cylinder.

A $25 boroscope connected to phone or computer and inserted in the injector hole could show you the state of the pistons and cylinders.
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Old 18-02-2021, 00:13   #30
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Re: Perkins 4.154 Pouring oil from breather tube

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Have you closed the seacock? It's strange that the cylinder keeps refilling if you have emptied the crankcase of water. Perhaps the crankcase is again full of water and #1 piston is all the way down and water is rising around the rings.

Or maybe water is trapped above the cylinder. It may have risen slowly through the rings? But this would not explain refilling.

With the injectors out you can turn the engine over by turning the alternator or water pump nuts and applying tension to the belts.

Most important is to get the water out and flush with oil to prevent rusting. Also the injector that was in water should be disassembled and lubricated with diesel fuel.

You may also want to take off the valve cover and pour oil around the valves.

If the engine is seized, don't force it. Let the oil soak in. You may want to use PB Blaster or WD-40 in the seized cylinder.

A $25 boroscope connected to phone or computer and inserted in the injector hole could show you the state of the pistons and cylinders.

Thanks Jack,

Great advice. I closed the water inlet, and pumped the oil pump handle. There was a small amount of water in the sump again, but not much. I'm wondering if perhaps the water is filling from my exhaust? This would explain water in the cylinder but not in the crankcase unless I have blown rings, or? (not sure if that's a correct assessment but it's my guess. I'll check the ehaust to rule that out, and will the water inlet closed I should be able to suck the water out in the morning.
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