Overfilled engine with oil

[Markhunter1097]

Well it seems at least I was lucky that I didn't get a runaway engine problem, I would have to lie beside the engine to get anywhere near the air intake (as I will to get to the starter motor anyway).
I'm thinking that even if I find a fuse/circuit breaker problem, I should still remove the injectors before I try and restart, just to enable removing any oil that may be in there.
Is that an easy job or are there any tricks/things not to do/don't give myself another headache to look out for.
thx.

another pic attached for anyone like me that likes pictures

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Markhunter1097

Well it seems at least I was lucky that I didn't get a runaway engine problem, I would have to lie beside the engine to get anywhere near the air intake (as I will to get to the starter motor anyway).
I'm thinking that even if I find a fuse/circuit breaker problem, I should still remove the injectors before I try and restart, just to enable removing any oil that may be in there.
Is that an easy job or are there any tricks/things not to do/don't give myself another headache to look out for.
thx.

another pic attached for anyone like me that likes pictures

I think I would try it without removing the injectors as long as you can turn her by hand. Since you are having starting probable anyway it may introduce another starting problem by requiring bleeding the fuel system.

[Markhunter1097]

I managed to get a few jobs done on the boat this weekend before the guests arrived for a sail down Pittwater.
Located the 20 amp circuit breaker and reset that , checked the emergency stop switch, I figure that the up position is the on position. (I never knew that switch was there as you can't even see it!)
No other fuse in the system that I can see, one large shunt type fuse which is OK.
Still nothing to the starter motor.
I did put the positive jumper lead straight to the starter from the battery positive, yet couldn't even get a spark so I'm figuring that I don't know what i'm doing here and need someone smarter to do this check before I stuff something else up.
On the positive side, I was able to turn the engine a full two revolutions by wrapping a sail tie on the belt pulley, It wasn't easy but I managed to do a full cycle and get all the pistons to the top and down again. So hopefully the internals are OK.
Gave the starter mounting bolts a good squirt and will attempt to remove next weekend, although I will need to grow my arms to get to it!!

[seabreez]

Originally Posted by Markhunter1097

I managed to get a few jobs done on the boat this weekend before the guests arrived for a sail down Pittwater.
Located the 20 amp circuit breaker and reset that , checked the emergency stop switch, I figure that the up position is the on position. (I never knew that switch was there as you can't even see it!)
No other fuse in the system that I can see, one large shunt type fuse which is OK.
Still nothing to the starter motor.
I did put the positive jumper lead straight to the starter from the battery positive, yet couldn't even get a spark so I'm figuring that I don't know what i'm doing here and need someone smarter to do this check before I stuff something else up.
On the positive side, I was able to turn the engine a full two revolutions by wrapping a sail tie on the belt pulley, It wasn't easy but I managed to do a full cycle and get all the pistons to the top and down again. So hopefully the internals are OK.
Gave the starter mounting bolts a good squirt and will attempt to remove next weekend, although I will need to grow my arms to get to it!!

You are following some good advice and doing some good steps. Turning the motor over a few turns is excellent. It proves that the starter is not jammed against the flywheel. Bypassing the positive cable to the starter is excellent. Before removing the starter... did you check the voltage at the starter at the large battery terminal?
I would not remove the injectors... you just proved to yourself that there is no hydraulic lock by turning the motor over a few turns.
Bring in a pro to get advice... It is difficult to give you advice through this media. There is very good advice on this forum... you do not give feedback that is logical to follow so that the members can walk you through. Give us more info on your problem...

[LooseGoose]

Me again....Glad to hear you found the on-engine breaker, and interested to hear you had to reset it.

That means something, a very high draw, had tried to 'get" more than 20 amps. So keep going with the logic. Now that it is reset, and nothing else happens, means that there is a continuity problem somewhere in the start circuit.

Everyone talks about bad ground cabling...I am embarrassed that I discovered bad Pos cabling, and had to clean that up for my 8BDC to go.

Redo those positive connections...I hope that's the ticket.

[01kiwijohn]

OK, good so far, engine appears to be ok internally.
Let's not make it more complicated than need be. Get a voltmeter (any cheap job will do), should have battery voltage at the big terminal on the solenoid, when the meter is grounded to the block. If not, follow the cable back to the battery and find cause of the open circuit. fix that, and you've got it licked mate.

[Markhunter1097]

Hi Seabreez, yes reading back through the posts I do see that it is a little hard to understand my problem, so sorry about that.
In short, I put 15 liters of oil into an engine that is only supposed to take 6 liters, and then started it, I shut it down after 2-3 secs of running after hearing a weird metallic clicking sound. I have now drained the excess oil out, yet now whenever I hit the start button, nothing happens.
My next test is to do as 01KiwiJon suggests and put the volt meter between the positive cable on the solenoid and the engine ground and hopefully that will find the issue.
To which I will report back to the forum.

On a side note, I never realized how over sized my gen set is, the thing weighs 300kgs, has 4 cylinders and is rated at 15 kw, and is shoehorned into the engine room.
All I use it for is charging the battery bank, burning toast, hair drying and heating dog food, all of which I'm sure that I can do better with a much smaller 2-3kw and an inverter.
So when I get it going again there is a high possibility of a 15 KW westerbeke, gen set with 2400 hours on the clock for sale in Sydney!

[tkeithlu]

Let's return to the starter test you said gave you nothing assuming you have corrected the wiring from the key to the solenoid as suggested above, and still have nothing.

Remember that everything here is grounded to the engine block and you are only dealing with supplying 12v+ and enough current at various levels of the circuit.
1. Get a good ground on the engine block for the black lead on your multimeter. Check by finding 0 ohms to the red lead somewhere else on the block. Leave it there. Switch your meter to volts.
1a. disconnect the small wire on the starter solenoid, attach it to the red lead on your multimeter, and confirm that when the key is turned to "start" you get 12v+. That confirms that you have straightened out all that wiring.
2. Red lead to + terminal on the battery. 12v+ and battery is charged and grounded to the engine block. If you get zero, it's not grounded, and if you get a low voltage the battery is dead.
3. Red lead at other end of the cable from the battery to starter solenoid, this is the big terminal on the solenoid. You need 12v+, or the cable is broken.
4. Clean both ends of this cable - it needs to supply bunches of current, not just voltage.
5. Read resistance between the positive (and only) pole on the starter itself and the block. You should get a few ohms from the starter windings; if you get infinity the starter is burned out.
6. Run a small lead directly from the battery 12v+ to the small connection on the starter solenoid. That's what your ignition key does; it should spin the starter and start the engine. If not, what did you hear? Nothing? Solenoid is suspect. Spinning but no engine turn over? Bendix is not engaging the star gear on the flywheel or the star gear is stripped. This solenoid does two jobs, acting as a relay to send bunckes of amps to the starter motor, and pushing the bendix gear into the star gear while the starter motor turns.
7. Run a heavy cable (red side of a jumper cable) from the battery 12v+ directly to the terminal on the starter itself. Be careful; touching the engine block or the starter housing will ground the battery and add fireworks to your life. If you get a big spark but the starter motor does not turn, the starter shorted. If you get no sparkand nothing happens, the starter winding is broken. If it does turn, the solenoid becomes the culprit.

Welcome to the game of chasing down 12vDC failures. We all do it; sometimes it's really frustrating, but if you divide the circuit into its component parts, you usually can find the problem. There is a graduate level version of the game that involves doing the same thing with radio outputs and antennas.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Let's return to the starter test you said gave you nothing assuming you have corrected the wiring from the key to the solenoid as suggested above, and still have nothing.

Remember that everything here is grounded to the engine block and you are only dealing with supplying 12v+ and enough current at various levels of the circuit.
1. Get a good ground on the engine block for the black lead on your multimeter. Check by finding 0 ohms to the red lead somewhere else on the block. Leave it there. Switch your meter to volts.
1a. disconnect the small wire on the starter solenoid, attach it to the red lead on your multimeter, and confirm that when the key is turned to "start" you get 12v+. That confirms that you have straightened out all that wiring.
2. Red lead to + terminal on the battery. 12v+ and battery is charged and grounded to the engine block. If you get zero, it's not grounded, and if you get a low voltage the battery is dead.
3. Red lead at other end of the cable from the battery to starter solenoid, this is the big terminal on the solenoid. You need 12v+, or the cable is broken.
4. Clean both ends of this cable - it needs to supply bunches of current, not just voltage.
5. Read resistance between the positive (and only) pole on the starter itself and the block. You should get a few ohms from the starter windings; if you get infinity the starter is burned out.
6. Run a small lead directly from the battery 12v+ to the small connection on the starter solenoid. That's what your ignition key does; it should spin the starter and start the engine. If not, what did you hear? Nothing? Solenoid is suspect. Spinning but no engine turn over? Bendix is not engaging the star gear on the flywheel or the star gear is stripped. This solenoid does two jobs, acting as a relay to send bunckes of amps to the starter motor, and pushing the bendix gear into the star gear while the starter motor turns.
7. Run a heavy cable (red side of a jumper cable) from the battery 12v+ directly to the terminal on the starter itself. Be careful; touching the engine block or the starter housing will ground the battery and add fireworks to your life. If you get a big spark but the starter motor does not turn, the starter shorted. If you get no sparkand nothing happens, the starter winding is broken. If it does turn, the solenoid becomes the culprit.

Welcome to the game of chasing down 12vDC failures. We all do it; sometimes it's really frustrating, but if you divide the circuit into its component parts, you usually can find the problem. There is a graduate level version of the game that involves doing the same thing with radio outputs and antennas.

I though he jumped the battery to the starter? The only question was starter or actually to the solenoid? I would suggest the other way. Connect to the starter then the battery less chance of hitting a ground.

[Markhunter1097]

Thanks keithlu, I will be print out your steps and attempt this weekend. I still think I will have to remove the starter to do these tests as I cant even see half of the unit due to it being tucked is such an inaccessible hole!
Also being an American boat in Australia, the wiring colors are not easy to get your head around. I'm used to red positive and black negative, yet there are plenty of black positive cables on this engine! at least I know have to keep very alert at check my +ve and -ve every time.

[tkeithlu]

You're welcome. Cadence' recommendation about doing the starter check the other way around is good. Be aware that if you pull the starter before doing the tests that 1. you need to ground the starter body, since it was grounded to the engine block by its mounting bolts, 2. you will not be able to check the remote possibility that the problem is a stripped star gear, 3 you need to see that the bendix gear moves out and spins when you charge the solenoid, and 4. the starter has a bunch of torque, given how heavy the suddenly spinning rotor is, and may as a result take a walk when you charge it. Clamp that sucker down.

[tkeithlu]

Hey, Markhunter1097. Be aware that it's really fun to be able to talk to someone who is experiencing the same problems I faced a few years ago when I was finishing up building my boat (a 12 year project). Half way around the world adds to it. If you feel like a newbie, be aware that everyone here was one, too, and in a few years you are going to be passing on advice to others.

Boat designers make incredibly efficient use of space, so access to starters, wiring, plumbing, seacocks, and the like is very difficult. That was one reason I built my own - all those hidden seacocks really bothered me. When I change an alternator, I'm standing up and it's at waist level, but I helped another cruiser in the Bahamas adjust the tension on his alternator belt, and only discovered where the adjustment bolts were located by feel. When I visit other boats, I'm stunned by how much useable space they have in such a small volume, but I guess it comes with a price when you want to change something.

[Markhunter1097]

So here is the update on my generator saga. The storms in Sydney over last weekend meant there was no chance to do any of the tests that I said I would, and this weekend is a long one here and more for party's not engine work.
So I called up my local friendly marine electrician and sent him onto the job after a very brief description of what was wrong.
I think he solved the problem within the first 15 minutes, he found that the earth that went from the generator to the main engine block was broken at the generator end, thus the non function of the starter motor. He re earthed it directly to the battery and she fired up perfectly!
Well how about that, who would have thought that overfilling an engine with oil would lead to the earth falling off! Not me that is for sure; funny how my thinking was poisoned to the extent that I couldn't solve the problem myself.
Thank you everyone very much for your help, and most informative replies.
Mark.


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[captlloyd]

An old saying in the medical profession, '' If you hear the sound of hoof-beats, don't look for Zebras''.

[Markhunter1097]

Looking at the picture I posted again, the offending earth can be seen just behind the exhaust riser on the main engine, not that it looks broken, but it is very accessible and something that in obvious hindsight I should have checked initially, yet wouldn't looking at the earth be looking for a 'zebra'? Considering that I thought I had blown the engine up with too much oil.




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