Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-09-2019, 05:52   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Departing from South Florida and the Bahamas
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 19
NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

BACKGROUND:
I have a Perkins 4.108 with a Hurth transmission in my 1975 Westsail 32. The engine was installed in 1987 by a previous owner. It was NEW when installed, as was the Hurth transmission. It's my understanding that the transmission was overhauled once... probably about 20 yrs ago.

I've been having some issues with shifting lately and I've decided to pull the tranny (with the boat in the water) and do another rebuild. I have two dilemmas to deal with...

1) I am on Grand Bahama Island, in the aftermath of Hurricane Dorian and it is impossible to have things shipped here. I have a friend coming over in about a week, however, if I can get the rebuild kit shipped to him in time.

2) The Hurth case is missing the metal plate providing model and drive ratio information. My best guess is that the tranny is an HBW 10, but I can't be certain. None of the POs have the installation info, nor remember the model. Also, the installer and later the rebuilder are both out of business. Assuming it is indeed an HBW 10, I also need to know if it is an "Early Model" or "Late Model".

As indicated, my best guess is that the tranny is an HBW 10. But when looking for rebuild kits, there are kits listed with "Early" and "Late" version designations. Unfortunately, none of the sellers seem to know in what year the HBW10 changed from "Early" to "Late". The kits are only somewhat different, but the main gaskets are completely different.

I could order the "Late Model" kit, which has two more steel clutch plates than the "Early Model" kit (8 vs 6). But I would also have to order both main gasket kits. Since I won't be able to ship the unused parts back within the specified timeframe, I would be throwing money down the drain. And these parts are not cheap!

QUESTIONS:
Does anyone know the approximate year that the HBW 10 "Late Model" was introduced? With enough leeway, I can assume that my installation was one version or the other (disregarding the possibility of having been "old stock").
I have photos of the tranny, but most say it is impossble to identify for sure, without first removing it and getting some internal dimensions. I have a PDF online with photos of the tranny, just in case someone out there is smarter than all the rest.

PHOTOS:
http://webbwebs.com/hurth/Hurth_Photos_Jack_Webb.pdf

Thank you in advance, for any help or suggestions. I'm on a tight time crunch to get the parts ordered in time to have my friend bring it over!

Jack Webb
svDrifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2019, 17:25   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 836
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

There are only 4 little gaskets and the shift mechanism gasket on the HBW10... ZF12 so perhaps buy both. My ZF parts book only lists one number each for the overhaul kit and the bearing kit but the service manual shows 2 different lower shafts, one with a big castle nut to hold it all together and one with a centre bolt and big washer.
This pic is the size of you gearbox if it's a HBW 10Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2241.jpg
Views:	256
Size:	258.9 KB
ID:	200708
skipperpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 06:13   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oriental, NC
Boat: None
Posts: 169
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

The blue painted gear in your attached photo is an HBW 150 or ZF 15M. Not an HBW 10.
FPNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 06:23   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Departing from South Florida and the Bahamas
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 19
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

Thank you!! That's a really big help (if you are certain). And it's something that even the Hurth suppliers and distributors couldn't tell me. You may have just saved me the incredible expense and lost time in ordering the wrong parts.

Would you be kind enough to explain exactly what indication led you to that conclusion. Also, do you know what year the HBW 10 (and perhaps HBW 15) was changed from "Early Model" to "Late Model"?

Thank you for your feedback. Inquiring minds want [need] to know!
svDrifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 06:58   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oriental, NC
Boat: None
Posts: 169
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

I use to work for ZF and I can tell by looking at the case.

If you PM your e-mail address I will send the correct information that you need.
FPNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 07:24   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2018
Boat: Allied Princess 36 MKII
Posts: 512
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

I would be very interested in this information as well, as I had an expert? Identify our hbw10 as an hbw150
Of course the measurements do not match either a 10 or 150
The stamp is not a plate, it is part of the case. Plainly says hbw10.Attachment 200743Click image for larger version

Name:	20190930_085005.jpeg
Views:	86
Size:	104.5 KB
ID:	200745Attachment 200744Attachment 200742
S/V Adeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 07:28   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Departing from South Florida and the Bahamas
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 19
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

Actually, sometimes the stamp IS a thin metal plate on TOP of the case, on the same side as the shift lever. At other times it stamped directly INTO the case, as you describe.

It's difficult to tell from the photos I uploaded, but my measurements was from the outer two ribs, not the entire case. (Since my unit is still mounted, it was very difficult to accurately measure outside to outside dimensions.) In this Photoshopped version of your image, I've moved your ruler to illustrate it.



Thank you for your input!
svDrifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 07:57   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2018
Boat: Allied Princess 36 MKII
Posts: 512
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

The ZF repair manual lists the exact same specifications (case dimensions, length as shown in pictures) for the hbw10 and hbw150. Is the manual wrong?
ZF 12 is hbw10
ZF 15 is hbw150
If the case is the same, how can someone tell by the picture?
S/V Adeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 08:03   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oriental, NC
Boat: None
Posts: 169
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

This can be a bit tricky.

SVDRIFTER: Your case can be either an HBW 10 or a HBW 125 or a HBW 150. They all used the same case. They have 2 fins on each end of the case and a notch in the middle. Same length fore and aft. These 3 transmissions share many of the same parts.

Difference is in the gear ratios.

You can count input and output rotations to get the ratio of your gear to ID it or count teeth on the input shaft gear.

SV ADELINE: Your gear has the same case design but is stamped HBW 10 so I assume it is an HBW 10.

Do not confuse the HBW 100 and the HBW 10. They are not the same gear. The HBW 100 and the ZF 10M are the same gear.
FPNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 08:24   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2018
Boat: Allied Princess 36 MKII
Posts: 512
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

FPNC,
I tried to edit my first post, where I said the measurements didn't match either, as my second post stated, the measurements are listed same for both.
I'm just hoping you can get svDrifter set up.
I have a downloaded Hurth manual that show different dimensions for the 10 and 150, it's just confusing.
S/V Adeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 08:31   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Departing from South Florida and the Bahamas
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 19
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

FPNC - Did I misunderstand your statement?

In your first post, you said: "The blue painted gear in your attached photo is an HBW 150 or ZF 15M. Not an HBW 10."

In the second post, you said: "Your case can be either an HBW 10 or a HBW 125 or a HBW 150. They all used the same case. They have 2 fins on each end of the case and a notch in the middle. Same length fore and aft."

I knew that. And I also know that the "HBW 100" and "ZF 10M" are equivalent, and that both are indeed smaller than the "HBW 10". If I'm not mistaken, the "HBW 10" is a fairly equivalent gearbox to the "HBW 125".

For what it's worth, the ZF rebuild kit (P/N 3306199007 ID/N 500438) is specified for the "HBW10, ZF12M, ZF15M, and ZF15MA". All of them. This kit contains 8 each of the Inner and Outer clutch discs, making it by definition, for the "Late Model". The basic parts are identical, but the outer gaskets are different for the "Early Model". I know my tranny was manufactured in 1987. What I still can't determine is approximately what year the "HBW 10" went from "Early" to "Late"!

You wouldn't think this info would be that hard to determine!
svDrifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 09:37   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oriental, NC
Boat: None
Posts: 169
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

You would be surprised at how little information is available for these older transmissions. And a lot of it is confusing or even wrong.

Without a tag, your kinda screwed. The only way to tell what 'version' you have (There are numerous versions of each gear model) is to look at the tag. The only way to get the year of production is to look on the tag. If I remember correctly the HBW 10 was dropped and the 125 took its place. They are similar in size but there are differences in the shafts. If I remember correctly, the HBW10 can be converted to counter rotation without replacing shafts/gears and the HBW 125 and 150 cannot.

I figured you were smart enough to recognize if there was an HBW 10 stamped on the side of the gear.

At this point you are left with figuring out the gear ratio and matching it to the correct model. Visavi the parts manual. If you need seals and clutch discs they are the same kit for each model 10, 125 & 150 and only one kit is available. Same for bearings. The manual lists each part that comes in the kit so you can match parts and quantity to your gear. If you have an 'older version' whatever that means, the clutch discs have a different part number and will have to be ordered separately from the kit as individual parts. They will be very expensive and maybe not even available. I will send you a detailed parts list for your gear.

If you need gears or shafts, throw the the thing away. It is not worth the money to replace them. If they were even available. You can get an excellent replacement for $1,800.00
FPNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 12:16   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 37
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

That is indeed a Hurth 150 - I can tell from the ribs on the face plate casting. I have the same one on my Perkins 4.154 and just rebuilt the transmission this spring. I bought the rebuild kit and it was not too hard though I did need the services of an auto transmission shop's gear press for the re-assembly. I can't help you on the "early" or "late" model issue - eBay did not make that distinction when I ordered mine this spring so I suspect either would work. Make sure you get the thrust washers with the kit - they tend to wear and you might as well replace them. There are a couple of YouTube videos on how to rebuilt the Hurth units - well worth watching.
JDanielBryant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 14:06   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Departing from South Florida and the Bahamas
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 19
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDanielBryant View Post
That is indeed a Hurth 150 - I can tell from the ribs on the face plate casting. I have the same one on my Perkins 4.154 and just rebuilt the transmission this spring. I bought the rebuild kit and it was not too hard though I did need the services of an auto transmission shop's gear press for the re-assembly. I can't help you on the "early" or "late" model issue - eBay did not make that distinction when I ordered mine this spring so I suspect either would work. Make sure you get the thrust washers with the kit - they tend to wear and you might as well replace them. There are a couple of YouTube videos on how to rebuilt the Hurth units - well worth watching.
Indeed? You're certain? No question about it? How about if you knew that the HBW-10, HBW-125 and HBW-150 used the same case? Damn frustrating, isn't it? Fortunately, they all use the same master rebuild kit. The individual gears are different, but the clutch parts, thrust washers, seals, etc., are the same.

I'm just going to buy the Late model kit, with 8 steel plates and put two away in the spare parts bin, if it ends up as an Early model.

Thanks for your input.
svDrifter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2019, 15:24   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 37
Re: NEED HELP WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION ID...

No problem. I have an old copy of the Hurth Manual on PDF that shows the different face plates for the different models - may help with the rebuild. It is too large to attach here at 4.6 Mb (the site limit is 2 Mb) but I can send it to you if you want - just reply with your email address.
JDanielBryant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hurth, transmission

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hurth / ZF M15A Transmission Failures tomj Propellers & Drive Systems 148 23-04-2021 10:00
What is the best oil for a Hurth Transmission ribbony Engines and Propulsion Systems 7 12-07-2018 17:21
Hurth Transmission - Need New or Rebuild ? Dennis.G Engines and Propulsion Systems 9 24-08-2012 04:16
Hurth Transmission Hi Ho Construction, Maintenance & Refit 5 25-12-2008 07:45
Hurth Transmission Oil Hi Ho Propellers & Drive Systems 3 26-05-2008 18:53

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.