Is There Another Way to Install a Fuel Pump? (Gasoline/Petrol)

[Squanderbucks]

Copied from a Racor install sheet.

(Vacuum Side Installation)
Fuel Tanks Below Filter
Lift should not exceed 4 inHg.
Optional fuel transfer pump not to exceed maximum PSI or flow rate of filter. Not Ideal—pumps emulsify water hindering filter performance.
Fuel Tank
(Ideal Vacuum Side Installation)
Engine
Fuel transfer pump (Ideal vacuum side installation).
Maintain a service clearance below filter assembly of at least 2 in. (5.1 cm).

As you see the do not recommend pushing the fuel into the filter. Pump best installed AFTER the filter. Cars have pumps installed in the fuel tank but have never hear of a boat doing this and for maintenance reasons who would want to keep accessing the inside of their tank. Also cars aren’t normally exposed to moisture in the fuel issues like boats.

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by oleman

The FACET company has a compete line of electric fuel pumps . They have models for everything from small carb engines to large diesels. Lots of how-to's are available at Pagasus Racing Supplies, in New Berlin WI. Their tech support and pricing are very good. They had the exact fuel pump for a Honda EV4010 genset that I restored. NO, I do not use the Honda EV4010 in the vessel.

Indeed. The Facet line of fuel pumps capable of high lifts are called Dura-Lift. They are used for refer trucks and other high lift applications. From 60" to 120"

http://www.facet-purolator.com/wp-co...yer%202017.pdf

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by Squanderbucks

Copied from a Racor install sheet.

(Vacuum Side Installation)
Fuel Tanks Below Filter
Lift should not exceed 4 inHg.
Optional fuel transfer pump not to exceed maximum PSI or flow rate of filter. Not Ideal—pumps emulsify water hindering filter performance.
Fuel Tank
(Ideal Vacuum Side Installation)
Engine
Fuel transfer pump (Ideal vacuum side installation).
Maintain a service clearance below filter assembly of at least 2 in. (5.1 cm).

As you see the do not recommend pushing the fuel into the filter. Pump best installed AFTER the filter. Cars have pumps installed in the fuel tank but have never hear of a boat doing this and for maintenance reasons who would want to keep accessing the inside of their tank. Also cars aren’t normally exposed to moisture in the fuel issues like boats.

Most boats are not trying to pull fuel up 60" either.

You are right, I am wrong, I stand corrected. I apologize for my error and for being clueless. I have seen transfer pumps up stream of the filters but they did have a strainer before the pump. I did not check the Racor install sheet prior to posting and clearly see I should have done so. I will go climb back under my rock. However, please note the dura-lift pumps I mentioned have a water separator built in and are typically installed upstream of the filter.

Cars have fuel pumps in-tank to cool the pump when running and to be quieter. Cars are inherently drier not because they don't sit out in the rain like a boat but because they have a vapor contained fuel system after 1968 for hydrocarbon emissions.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

If directed at me you are preaching to the choir. I couldn't agree more that one should push the fuel, and the pump goes before the Racor as opposed to trying to pull vacuum through the Racor (which it's not designed for). In tank pumps also benefit from using the fuel as coolant.

OP wants an option of a gasoline pump that is designed to lift over 60" which I linked. I have no other opinion or motive than that.

Not specifically at you, just pointing out the pitfalls.

[jmschmidt]

After a couple years of use the my factory installed (Vetus-Mitsubishi) mechanical fuel and water pumps proved that their design was a bunch of crap. I tore them out and replaced the fuel pump with an electric one originally designed for the VW Bug (similar to Chotu's post). It is mounted upstream and is connected directly to the Racor.
A second crankcase pulley, an aluminum bracket, a fan belt and a Jabsco mechanical pump took care of the water pump problem.
The VW electric pump ($10.95 back in the day) was obviously made for gasoline but it worked fine for diesel. I must have started something 30 years ago because now they offer basically the same pump marked for both "gas" and "diesel," but I doubt there is any difference whatever, just now more expensive and way more expensive for so-called "diesel" model.
I added a 2nd electric pump at tank level (in the bilge) to eliminate any sucking problem in rough water with just the single pump trying to lift. Works like a champ for several years now.
I have only a single fuel tank but why screw around with a bunch of pipes and valves (which will eventually leak) if you have multiple tanks. Why not just mount an electric pump near the bottom of each tank and control wires to the electrical panel or bridge?

[Chotu]

This is really complicated.

What if I took a Facet 120” lift pump like the one linked to and used that?

BUT... also put a standard fuel pump inline down by ONE of the 3 tanks (all are in one hull. There is other weight elsewhere balancing it all out)?

That way, I could select tank 1, 2, or 3 primarily and not have vapor lock usually. Then, if things get too hot and I’m having vapor lock, I can select ONLY tank 3 and kick on the pushed pump from down there to clear out any vapor lock? Always using the 3rd tank last so it’s ready?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Squanderbucks

It seems to me the issue is how far the tanks are from your Racor and the depth of the tanks. As I see it you only need one fuel pump after the Racor and before a fuel selector valve (manifold). It doesn’t matter if your pump is near the engine or near the Racor. What does matter though is if you have to run a considerable length of hose - you need to up size the ID hose size. Don’t know what you have now but trying to run fuel through 1/4” or 5/16” can be quite restrictive. I would suspect 3/8” would be necessary to reduce the load on the pump.
A simple manifold out of brass pipe and ball valves would suffice.

All my hoses are 3/8.” Ideally is like to do just what you’re describing, which is my current setup. But the vapor lock issue.

The fuel comes from tanks down in the hull and never goes outside to get to the “explosives box”, so I can’t be sure if I have vapor lock or just my little pumps are no good to lift it up.

Maybe it’s best to try the big Facet pump everyone linked to and then address vapor lock if I still have problems?

I’ll get a great test actually this summer. It’ll be a million degrees and I’ll be running the generators off the main fuel tanks to support air conditioning to keep my work output high through the heat.

[Chotu]

How does this one look?

https://www.amazon.com/SEACHOICE-50-...5155349&sr=8-9


It’s the duralift. 9-11 PSI rating. 33GPH which is about 27GPH more than I can take. Usually I’ll just be at 3GPH or in the case of generators, less than 1GPH.

Is that ok?

Will it be happy just spinning it’s wheels when fuel isn’t required at the high level it’s rated for?

[Rucksta]

Pressurise the fuel tanks.
Attach an aquarium bubbler pump to the breathers.
Very little pressure 2-3 psi is all that's required.

[Sailmonkey]

If it’s like any other fuel pump I’ve seen it’ll stop stroking when it’s reached it’s operating pressure, so it’ll either deliver 33gph or 9-11 psi, but likely not both.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Rucksta

Pressurise the fuel tanks.
Attach an aquarium bubbler pump to the breathers.
Very little pressure 2-3 psi is all that's required.

Hmmm. And when you fill the tank and the breather is blasting air out?

Is the aquarium pump ok with this?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

If it’s like any other fuel pump I’ve seen it’ll stop stroking when it’s reached it’s operating pressure, so it’ll either deliver 33gph or 9-11 psi, but likely not both.

Oh!! I thought they just stayed on. That they had no pressure switch like we have on our water pumps.

My little facets like this one have never turned off for a minute.

[Scubaseas]

The pumps you have now are 25 to 30ish GPH but none are rated for a lift higher than 60". The solid state plastic one can only lift 24". The round "gold flo" facets can do more but still marginal if you are going that big of head being 60" away. I think the problem you have now is not enough push out of the pumps to overcome head pressure combined with the engine lift pumps trying to create a vacuum and then developing vapor lock from it.

Look at specs here http://www.facet-purolator.com/wp-co...%20Catalog.pdf

I don't do math but you could probably benefit from using a 1/2" hose from tanks to motors. 3/8" is not helping you. I also have no idea where my ancient copy of Camerons Hydraulics is. Or I think that was the name of it. Been a long time.

I would either pull with a duralift 40303 to a day tank that has a fuel level shut off. This only runs the pump as needed and doesn't have pressurized fuel lines in the boat. So tanks, selector, filter, duralift, day tank, lines to motors. Your outboards if fuel injected run on essentially an internal tank (Yamaha calls it a vapor separator tank) that holds about 1.5 to 2 Liter of fuel. You don't need a big day tank, maybe 2 to 3 gallons depending on slosh, angle etc.

Or

Alternately you could run one pusher pump at the tank level (within 18 to 24") that is rated to push at least your actual head. So tanks, selector valves, filter, pump and then up to a tee to motors. Downside is you now have pressurized fuel lines in the boat. If you go this way wire the pump
through the oil pressure switch or a hall sensor or something that will shut down the fuel pump if the motor is not running. I'd ask Facet of they make a Gold Flo that can overcome 120" dry head.


Mind you your engines have lift pumps that can also pull fuel about 24 to 30" easily which maybe contributing to a vapor lock due to vacuum. If feeding two motors you really might consider using a 1/2" or even 3/4" supply line between tanks and the tee to the motors.

Maybe put a call into Facet and ask their design department what might work best for your situation.

[rslifkin]

Some pumps cycle, some have a pressure relief and rub constantly.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Oh!! I thought they just stayed on. That they had no pressure switch like we have on our water pumps.

My little facets like this one have never turned off for a minute.

they don't really have a pressure switch, they simply are a spring driven piston with a solenoid to pull it back. so if the spring isn't able to push more fuel, then the solenoid isn't going to pull the piston.