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Old 01-05-2020, 22:11   #46
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
That would be an extremely rare occurrence, odds of that happening are vanishingly small, happening twice?
To illustrate it, all automobiles that I know of are fuel injected, at lest the ones made in the last 30 or more years anyway, and as such that all have electric fuel pumps, vast majority of these pumps are actually located in the fuel tank.
I have never heard of a failure, which almost certainly would be an explosion and almost instantaneous SERIOUS fire
And yet, that's exactly what started to happen Engine sound and revs change for an instant, lower but not out. Throttle back, scratch my chin, lift the engine room hatch under my feet (Amel, so it's the big waterproof room), and am greeted with a solid 2m cube of black smoke. When it dissipates enough to see a bit, the fuel pump is gushing smoke (and I mean like a little black fire extinguisher) out of a hole in it's side that just melted thru.

Engine off, everyone ran for an extinguisher, but we held off and watched as the smoke started getting lighter and I didnt want the cleanup in the engine room if I could avoid it. It fizzled out after a few minutes, cooled, took it off, replaced with a bulb, and on our way.

However, good point about how many of these are in use vs failure. Perhaps I just lucked out?
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Old 02-05-2020, 01:36   #47
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

This is a VERY OLD (1989) version of ABYC H-33 “Diesel Fuel Systems”
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....H-33.1989.pdf

H-33.10 e. Hose, Fittings and Clamping
(1) Non-metallic hose shall comply with the performance requirements of the UL Standard 1114, dated April 13, 1987, or with the requirements of SAE J1527DEC85.
(a) Non-metallic hose shall be marked on the outermost cover with the manufacturer's name or trademark, year of manufacture,
and
(b) Fire resistant hose capable of passing the 2-1/2 minute fire test in ABYC H-33.5.g. must be marked "USCG Type Al or USCG Type A2"


I wish all of our "Latrine Lawyers" would spend half as much time learning best practices, as they do hunting up legal technicalities, rationalizing how little they can get away with.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:10   #48
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
....
I wish all of our "Latrine Lawyers" would spend half as much time learning best practices, as they do hunting up legal technicalities, rationalizing how little they can get away with.
By that I assume you are speaking about me (and possibly a few others).

But you're the one who brought law, incorrectly, into the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
SAE & ISO
The U.S. Coast Guard addresses fuel line requirements in the code of federal regulations (CFR) that applies to recreational boats: CFR Title 33, Type A1-15.....
Had you simply said "it's best practice, as described in ABYC..." then there would be no discussion, but instead, you tried to tell us it's the law, and it just isn't. I simply pointed out that the law as quoted didn't apply. Never, ever, said, implied, or otherwise indicated that it wasn't best practice to use the same material for diesel installations, simply that it wasn't the law in the US.

In fact, in my first post on the subject I pointed out (without the detailed reference that you just provided) that ABYC (considered by many here to be "best practice") has a different stance.

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ABYC certainly has a different stance. Fuel hose ratings with regard to flammability don't care much about which fuel, with regard to permeation the specifications are all written around gasoline and really don't speak much to diesel.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:27   #49
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

The hand-wringing over this whole fuel bulb thing is absolutely hilarious. Reading this thread is making me want to go pop some popcorn. If you don't want to use a primer bulb then don't. I am simply amused at how many people get their panties up in a bunch over this, some so much that they assert that it is against the law even.

95% of the people here in CF seem to never leave the dock anyhow, much less actually actively cruise. Now I can see why
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:41   #50
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

Presently have an electric pump for priming or transferring fuel. On my previous boat I installed a bulb and used it for fifteen years with no problems. It was great.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:45   #51
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

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Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
By that I assume you are speaking about me (and possibly a few others).

But you're the one who brought law, incorrectly, into the discussion.



Had you simply said "it's best practice, as described in ABYC..." then there would be no discussion, but instead, you tried to tell us it's the law, and it just isn't. I simply pointed out that the law as quoted didn't apply. Never, ever, said, implied, or otherwise indicated that it wasn't best practice to use the same material for diesel installations, simply that it wasn't the law in the US.

In fact, in my first post on the subject I pointed out (without the detailed reference that you just provided) that ABYC (considered by many here to be "best practice") has a different stance.
Click on his link, read the first page
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:54   #52
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I can tell you, itís not a cut, itís a spilt, it softened over time. Maybe from the fuel or maybe from fuel additives even.
But back to it doesnít meet the flame resistance requirements and please donít tell me Diesel fuel doesnít burn, itís the same reason you donít go to Autozone and buy fuel hose, or use automotive fuel filters, because they donít meet requirements if your a US boat, itís the law.
I donít use house wire in my boat either, but I have seen a whole lot of it, and you can argue it works and since it saves a lot of money why not, but I wonít.

I have never seen a fuel bulb rated for Diesel, I assume some may exist but never seen one.
Here's one for you, took me three minutes to find
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-4398.../dp/B0012332TU
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:58   #53
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

I am quite familiar with the link in question. It references 46CFR182.130, which is part of Subchapter T, which, as previously posted, applies only to commercial vessels. The ABYC standard is incorporated there by reference, and is an alternative to the actual requirements contained in 46CFR.

Quote:
ß 182.130 Alternative standards.
As an alternative to complying with the provisions of this part, a vessel of not more than 19.8 meters (65 feet) in length, carrying not more than 12 passengers, and propelled by gasoline or diesel internal combustion engines, other than a High Speed Craft, may comply with ABYC H-2, ABYC H-22, ABYC H-24, ABYC H-25, ABYC H-32, ABYC H-33, ABYC P-1, and ABYC P-4 (all eight standards incorporated by reference, see 46 CFR 175.600) as specified in this part.
I've already posted the actual legal requirements (again for commercial vessels) from that section, and they only allow 30" of A1 hose for flexibility, all remaining hose must be steel-reinforced. And that section of code doesn't include the non-flammability requirements that are found in ABYC.
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Old 02-05-2020, 08:01   #54
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

If you want a bulb that is rated for diesel (although not ABYC compliant), every Bobcat skidsteer equipment comes with one, and they are all diesel powered. AFAIK they are only available in 1/4" hose size, so probably too small for many, but they do exist for use with diesel.

https://www.bobcatparts.com/fuel-pri...20natshobpssbu
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Old 02-05-2020, 08:24   #55
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

It would seem that such a device would be in high demand just for the convenience and making fuel filter changing and priming one’s diesel a substantially quicker task. Being the little lever on my Beta 16 diesel used for priming/bleeding the fuel system is a mean spirited joke meant to cause permanent emotional damage to ones psyche. Is there such a device that is available that is manual and readily available???

Fair winds,
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Old 02-05-2020, 08:26   #56
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
... But you're the one who brought law, incorrectly, into the discussion...
... Had you simply said "it's best practice, as described in ABYC..." then there would be no discussion, but instead, you tried to tell us it's the law ....
My to reference to SAE & ISO specifications, was in direct response to Argyle38's question, “who approves?”, as quoted in my reply.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3129523

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Old 02-05-2020, 08:41   #57
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

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Originally Posted by Pegu Club View Post
It would seem that such a device would be in high demand just for the convenience and making fuel filter changing and priming oneís diesel a substantially quicker task. Being the little lever on my Beta 16 diesel used for priming/bleeding the fuel system is a mean spirited joke meant to cause permanent emotional damage to ones psyche. Is there such a device that is available that is manual and readily available???

Fair winds,
Many Racor filters come with an optional manual priming pump (or electric if you like). Mine (sorry, not sure model #) has a plunger pump on top. Takes about 10 strokes to fill the filter, then about 5 more to get fuel coming out the bleed screw on the engine.

Separ makes an inline pump that can be used with any filter.
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Old 02-05-2020, 08:53   #58
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

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My to reference to SAE & ISO specifications, was in direct response to Argyle38's question, ďwho approves?Ē, as quoted in my reply.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3129523


Hi GordMay, Argyle38 seemed to be asking "who approves primer bulbs for use in diesel fuel lines". The correct answer is the boat builder. They self certify the boat is compliant when manufactured. Since there is no regulation against primer bulbs in diesel systems for recreational boats, it is completely satisfactory for a manufacture to certify it as compliant if they choose to install one. Obviously when installed after manufacture, nobody certifies it. You can do to your boat's engine whatever you want. There are no legal regulations for aftermarket work on diesel systems as far as I know. Yes, certainly it is best practice to use marine products approved for builders, but it is not required by law. BUT since the Primer Bulb does not violate new manufacture regulations (maybe it does violate ABYC which is not law), and if installed above the fuel tank, I would not support the claim that the primer bulb is poor practice.. IMHO..
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Old 02-05-2020, 09:19   #59
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

I wonder how many of the people who have a cow about something as inconsequential as using a priming bulb on a small sailboat diesel actually wear their PFD always when in their dinghy, or out on the deck when sailing?

#priorities ...
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Old 02-05-2020, 09:56   #60
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Re: Is a fuel primer bulb legit?

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Hi GordMay, Argyle38 seemed to be asking "who approves primer bulbs for use in diesel fuel lines". The correct answer is the boat builder. They self certify the boat is compliant when manufactured. Since there is no regulation against primer bulbs in diesel systems for recreational boats, it is completely satisfactory for a manufacture to certify it as compliant if they choose to install one. Obviously when installed after manufacture, nobody certifies it. You can do to your boat's engine whatever you want. There are no legal regulations for aftermarket work on diesel systems as far as I know. Yes, certainly it is best practice to use marine products approved for builders, but it is not required by law. BUT since the Primer Bulb does not violate new manufacture regulations (maybe it does violate ABYC which is not law), and if installed above the fuel tank, I would not support the claim that the primer bulb is poor practice.. IMHO..
Builders do not certify anything in part or whole. Independent testing agencies test components independently or as part of a system. UL for instance has listed components that will not be certified independently but will be UL compliant as part of a certified system. While it is the testing agencies job to certify components and systems it is the responsibility of the installer/manufacturer to comply with their recommendations. If manufacturers certified their own systems and components without third party independent testing there would be a major loophole to certify inadequate components.
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