Hybrid Diesels

[Stumble]

Could we please stop using locomotives to justify anything in the marine world? It is an incredibly stupid comparison. Due to the extreme torque needed to get them moving a direct drive train would require a massively complicated transmision and would require shifting gears every 2-3mph. In addition they use six drive axles, which means every drive axle needs its own tranny, ect.

Electric works great here exactly because of the decoupling of the drive and the power plant. While in a boat that same thing causes huge efficiency losses.

There is a very narrow band of recreational cruising profile where diesel-electric mathematically works more efficiently than a direct drive. But very few people meet those requirements, and the fuel savings in absolute terms will never pay back the cost to implement the system. Better batteries are the critical part to make them work, and there just aren't any good ways around current limitations.

[nwdiver]

Many large ships, freighters and cruise ships are diesel electric because they can place the fuel engines optimally in the vessel and then run the smaller electric motors aft on the drive shafts, its a design placement issue. Now if you were placing your fuel engine far forward in your boat and don't want a 20-30 foot drive shaft, yes a diesel electric may be a solution otherwise not so much......

[rw58ph]

Originally Posted by Mexdon

I am in the process of specing a new 56 foot yacht that will be built over the next 14 months and an looking at engine choices. So I am wondering if anyone here has actual experience with Hybrid Diesels specifically Steyr Motors of Austria.

Our 1978 RW 58 ft trawler is powered by a single DD 671, 165 hp, natural which has a 5 KW cruise gen set attached to it. When out in open water the main gen, 10KW gen, which is also a get home, is shut down and we use the 5 KW cruise gen. The 5 KW was little/no effect on the DD 671.

The engines of choice by trawler mfg is Deer, Cat, Cummins and International. If space is limited Deer and Cummins as they are straight in line engines. I would not have a Volvo engine as they have not been proven for marine and parts and service are expensive and limited. A sister site, Trawler Forum would be better for information discussion. Trawler Forum

If you are truely interested in green, then full displacment at hull speed is the most economical. Also I would talk/walk the commercial docks/yards rather than pleasure. The Eagle s built from a commercila hull and running gear.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by jongleur

According to all-knowing Wiki:

"Currently, almost all diesel locomotives are diesel-electric..."

Actually that is incorrect. Especially Germany is home to a huge fleet of diesel hydraulic locomotives. The usually reason given is that diesel hydraulic is more efficient than diesel electric (or used to be) and Germany doesn't have much a of a domestic oil production. DMUs are also usually either direct or hydraulic drive.

The main reason for the popularity of Diesel Electrics in the US is the high torque at low speeds. Something US railways have more use for than European ones. However, diesel electric locomotive is not a "hybrid".

If you look at ships then you see that the norm is still direct drive diesel engines, optimised for the usual cruise speed.

What I can imagine to make sense in a sailboat however is a parallel hybrid, where you have a diesel engine optimised for economical cruise and an electric motor to boost 's power for manoeuvring. Especially if the electric motor can double as generator. Something like this Nanni system:

Nanni Energy in blue

[ullar]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

What I can imagine to make sense in a sailboat however is a parallel hybrid, where you have a diesel engine optimised for economical cruise and an electric motor to boost 's power for manoeuvring. Especially if the electric motor can double as generator. Something like this Nanni system:

Nanni Energy in blue

That's more or less the setup I I've been dreaming about for a while.
1. Normal low-revving diesel directly connected to prop.
2. Relatively big motor/generator parallel to a drive shaft to recharge boats batteries or to get me quietly in or out of a marina.
3. Possibility to charge boats batteries when sailing.

[ullar]

There is also Beta / HybridMarine to consider.

Engine on my boat is doing a lot of stop and goes. Warm up for 5 minutes and go for 10 minutes until sails are up. Diesels don't like that. Also, why not get rid of that separate propeller generator hanging at your boats transom.

[Mexdon]

At this stage I want to thank everyone for the comments and suggestions, I am now starting my investigations based on what I have learnt here, I am not looking to be green for the sake of being green, I am looking for a system that doesn't pollute when in more confined waters or unspoiled loacations, also as one poster has pointed out diesels don't like stop/start in an out of a marina and that is also something I am trying to avoid.

[SeaKing]

If I didn't have as many projects going on that need time and money, I dream of removing one of the diesel saildrives in SeapawsII and putting in an electric saildrive in for manuevering and quiet motoring off of some solar and battery storage when there is no wind. Leaving one reliable straight diesel propulsion unit when making long motoring runs. Have the electric side set up with a larger generator for house use and/or to run the electric saildrive when there is need to power for heavy use.

The same electric saildrive could regen to the batteries while under sail or motoring with the diesel drive.

Just need more time and green.

[Kenomac]

Instead of wasting money... I mean investing in some green scheme engine... why not just sail and use wind power?

We run our diesel generator and diesel engine all the time, and honestly cant see how either is causing any harm to the environment. 1 gallon of diesel powers the yanmar 100hp turbo diesel for one hour and moves our 25 ton boat over 7 miles. Very efficient.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Instead of wasting money... I mean investing in some green scheme engine... why not just sail and use wind power?

We run our diesel generator and diesel engine all the time, and honestly cant see how either is causing any harm to the environment. 1 gallon of diesel powers the yanmar 100hp turbo diesel for one hour and moves our 25 ton boat over 7 miles. Very efficient.

While I agree in relation to the efficiency of a modern diesel, to deny the considerable pollution generated by diesels ( and marine diesels ) is some what strange.

Dave

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

While I agree in relation to the efficiency of a modern diesel, to deny the considerable pollution generated by diesels ( and marine diesels ) is some what strange.

Dave

We are talking about a "sailboat," a vessel normally powered by wind. Correct? A boat where the use of a diesel engine is optional. So we combine free non-polluting wind power with an incredibly efficient modern turbo diesel for optional use... what could be better?

If the OP is that worried about pollution, maybe he should try towing one of those electric generators off the stern. Or just use the turbo diesel sparingly. Or better yet... purchase a fishing net with a long pole and pick up all the trash he encounters along his future travels, and dispose of it properly.

It just seems silly to me, to express concern for the environment, then spend lots of extra cash on an unproven hybrid engine... just for the "feel good factor."

One final point and thought: If the OP is so very concerned about pollution... why doesn't he consider the purchase of a used boat? A boat that already exists. Certainly, there will be lots of waste and pollution caused during the production of his new boat.

Ken

[a64pilot]

I got that he wanted a motor yacht, but a "green" one, That was why I said what I did several post ago, what's greener than what most of us have, a sailboat?
So you wanna actually be green? Save an old sailboat from the junkyard and become one of the $500 a month cruisers getting your clothing from Goodwill and using very little expendables.
They are really the green ones, not the motor yachts with "green Diesels"

[Mexdon]

The idea is to sail, I would rather sit and drift and wait for wind than start the engine to motor out of a calm, however sailing in a marina is usually frowned upon or totally prohibited and although I have often sailed to an anchorage and anchored it is not always posible. I am thinking of both contamination and the wear and tear on the diesel when used for very short periods.

[a64pilot]

Sorry about that, I stand corrected.
Truly if you are even just a little conscious of it, you can cut your fuel usage to almost nothing. I motor far more than I want to as I'm a weekend type at this point still and have to be back at work on Mon. morning, but I've found that reducing my motoring speed from 7.5 kts to 6.5 kts almost cuts my consumption in half to about .5 gl an hour.
So you burn 10 gl a month if you motor 20 hours a month? OK, so motor 5 hours a month and you burn 2.5 gl an hour, that's pretty darn green if you ask me, and if you really are concerned, spec a Diesel that has a catalytic convertor and injects Urea into it's exhaust, they are very clean, more so I bet than a Hybrid
Be a custom install I'm sure as I think marine engines are exempt from pollution standards?

[ABJ87]

Don't forget pollution is created while manufacturing goods.

Which would produce more green house gasses over its lifetime? A simple diesel or a complicated hybrid system..... I don't know... studies have shown at standard gasoline cars produce less pollution over its lifetime than hybrids...

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