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Old 19-12-2019, 21:36   #31
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

I have owned a 1984 VP 2003 for 15 yrs.The first couple of yrs were continuous leaks at various soft copper cooling tube ends.I also had the complete cooling system apart at various times for heat exchanger,raw water pump & circulator pump repairs. I got tired of drips & here is how I fixed the problem.
Much of this is covered in posts #3,5(Pete7),#8,12(jamhass),#22 (Paul L),#24 & 25(Black Heron),# 30(sandy stone)
Pay heed to their suggestions.


In addition,I add the following:
Get yourself a battery terminal cleaning brush-available at any auto store.
https://www.princessauto.com/en/deta...sh/A-p8007435e
Use it to clean the ends of the copper pipes to shiny copper & to clean the sockets to shiny brass.
Throw the old rubber seal rings away,if they are more than a few days old.
Buy a half dozen or so of new seals from VP.Don't try to use any other seals.Don't use any sealant goop of any kind.

Lube the new VP seal rings with a touch of petroleum jelly or thin soap just to help them slip into place.
Install the seals carefully onto the shiny clean pipes first.
Insert the pipe & seal carefully & straight all the way into the shiny clean brass socket til it bottoms out. Hold it tightly & straight until you fully tighten the retainer clip or whatever holds it in place.
These pipes & joints will not tolerate any wiggle /flexing in service.


This is where it can get tricky. In order to get a tight assembly,things must be put into place in a certain order,so that no undue strain is put on any joint.This takes a bit of thinking,patience & maybe backing up,if you find you would have to force something.
Do not force or bend anything.Back up & try another order of assembly.


My 2003 has not leaked in the last 5 yrs-after I went thru this process.


Here are VP part numbers for the 3 common seals used on these engines.Suggest you order extra,so that you have spares for future use.


418411 (most common) suggest min. Qty 8
829714 min. Qty 6
418445 C seal min. Qty 6
The above Qtys will give you a couple of spares I think.


Here is a link to VP exploded parts diagrams & part nbrs.
Volvo Penta Schematics - Marine Parts Express


Cheers/Len
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Old 20-12-2019, 01:03   #32
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by deblen View Post


418411 min. Qty 8......... 4.44 35.52
829714 min. Qty 6......... 6.14 36.84
418445 C min. Qty 6...... 7.56 45.36
90.72 for non-reusable seals, to install into a system that "will not tolerate any wiggle /flexing in service" and requires chess strategy to get it too work; "In order to get a tight assembly, things must be put into place in a certain order, so that no undue strain is put on any joint. This takes a bit of thinking,patience & maybe backing up,if you find you would have to force something.

Do not force or bend anything.Back up & try another order of assembly."




3/4" reinforced silicone coolant hose. 4 feet? 15.00
(adjust size accordingly, that's a guess)
assorted hose clamps.. 15.00
2 hose barbs.................. 30.00

So 60.00 if you do the work yourself, for a system that is resistant to vibration and mis-alignment in a notoriously vibration and misalignment-prone area, is easy to service, reusable, and in remote areas is able to be field-modified and repaired with off-the-shelf parts.

Of course, there may be parameters that force you to use Volvo's system (but I bet not), this is something that has to be tailored by application.

I like Volvo engines. After they've had the ancillary design flaws worked out of them.

Just presenting an alternate viewpoint.
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Old 20-12-2019, 06:27   #33
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Converting the silly tube and socket seal system to conventional hose barbs is not as simple as it sounds. These copper tubes are much smaller than they look in photos. Flexible rubber or silicone hoses with the same ID would have a massively larger OD than a copper pipe that has a wall thickness of barely 1mm.

Volvo-Penta used this system so they could save space and pack these parts extremely tightly onto the face of the engine with a minimal foorprint. A poster said they thought that it "looked like" there was plenty of space to convert to a barb and rubber hose (with associated hose clamps) at the pump and route it past the crankshaft belt pully. Well you go ahead and try it and tell us all how it worked out. Laughing our loud at that one. That goes double for the two pipes that come down from the face of the head in front of the thermostat area and feed into the water pump, or from the water pump back into the heat exchanger. This stuff is all packed tightly and densely to save space and there just isn't room to use rubber hoses which would have double the OD and need space to locate barbs and hose clamps, much less how the sockets could be threaded for barbs or somehow epoxied into them. Sounds like a cure worse than the disease. The real cure is to ditch the green garbage and install a Beta.

Yes, the Volvo-Penta copper pipe and socket system sucks eggs, and those of us who own these turkeys and need to work on them suffer the consequences of V-P's awful engineering choices every time we touch these systems. But this isn't a simple conversion that can be done even by a very handy person. You have to work with what you've got.

Let's not even bring up the dreadful nylon restrictor orifice in the turbo return cooling pipe and what happens if it moves in that T-pipe or gets plugged up by even the tinyist bits of scale in the system...

Shoulda bought a Beta!
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Old 20-12-2019, 07:59   #34
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

OK, I went to a machine ahip and had barbs machined and welded on both sides of the pump. I will put it on tomorrow and see how that works.

Total costs in Turkey:
20mm barb: 3 USD
welding: 2.50 USD
machine shop: 8 USD

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Old 20-12-2019, 08:30   #35
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschmidt View Post
I had a similar problem with my Vetus-Mitsubishi. It used a shaft driven off of the engine's power takeoff upon which Vetus mounted both the mechanical fuel and raw water pumps. The tiny O rings on the shaft isolating this lash-up from leaking water regularly failed. Raw water first destroyed the both pumps and then let seawater trickle into the crank case through the power takeoff port.

I ripped the whole thing out and tossed it. Had a machinist make a second pully for the crank shaft. Fashioned an L-shaped bracket to mount a Jabsco belt-driven raw water pump, install a couple of Volkswagen electric fuel pumps ($15) and its worked fine for the last 25+ years. Newer electric pumps ($50) supposedly designed for diesel are available to replace the VW ones (which need replacing every 10 years or so) but can't say they are $35 better.

Don't know if you have enough room to do installation this but you might consider it.

Leave it to the Europeans to attempt to marine-ize a fine little Japanese engine and turn it into a mess.

This is very interesting, would you mind sharing a photo when you get to the boat? It could be very useful for me in the future as I am anticipating a fuel pump issue coming up. Thank you!
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Old 20-12-2019, 09:06   #36
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by deblen View Post
I have owned a 1984 VP 2003 for 15 yrs.The first couple of yrs were continuous leaks at various soft copper cooling tube ends.I also had the complete cooling system apart at various times for heat exchanger,raw water pump & circulator pump repairs. I got tired of drips & here is how I fixed the problem.
Much of this is covered in posts #3,5(Pete7),#8,12(jamhass),#22 (Paul L),#24 & 25(Black Heron),# 30(sandy stone)
Pay heed to their suggestions.


In addition,I add the following:
Get yourself a battery terminal cleaning brush-available at any auto store.
https://www.princessauto.com/en/deta...sh/A-p8007435e
Use it to clean the ends of the copper pipes to shiny copper & to clean the sockets to shiny brass.
Throw the old rubber seal rings away,if they are more than a few days old.
Buy a half dozen or so of new seals from VP.Don't try to use any other seals.Don't use any sealant goop of any kind.

Lube the new VP seal rings with a touch of petroleum jelly or thin soap just to help them slip into place.
Install the seals carefully onto the shiny clean pipes first.
Insert the pipe & seal carefully & straight all the way into the shiny clean brass socket til it bottoms out. Hold it tightly & straight until you fully tighten the retainer clip or whatever holds it in place.
These pipes & joints will not tolerate any wiggle /flexing in service.


This is where it can get tricky. In order to get a tight assembly,things must be put into place in a certain order,so that no undue strain is put on any joint.This takes a bit of thinking,patience & maybe backing up,if you find you would have to force something.
Do not force or bend anything.Back up & try another order of assembly.


My 2003 has not leaked in the last 5 yrs-after I went thru this process.


Here are VP part numbers for the 3 common seals used on these engines.Suggest you order extra,so that you have spares for future use.


418411 (most common) suggest min. Qty 8
829714 min. Qty 6
418445 C seal min. Qty 6
The above Qtys will give you a couple of spares I think.


Here is a link to VP exploded parts diagrams & part nbrs.
Volvo Penta Schematics - Marine Parts Express


Cheers/Len
This is incredibly helpful! Thank you.

Unfortunately at this point I have already cussed out and forced every single one of these pipes and they are all leaking. I do not think there is any going back but to weld on barbs and start a new, which I would feel comfortable about since I believe I will get a much better fit. I also looked up the heat exchangers and there is a company that re-manufactures these things and they come with hose barbs! Ta-Da! Here is a photo:
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Old 20-12-2019, 09:36   #37
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

I would just buy a new aftermarket heat exchanger (with a zinc anode) and mount it off the engine.

If you want to alter the raw water pump I can tell you what the previous owner did to my 2003 (Non-turbo) He soldered a 90-degree copper pipe fitting onto the existing tube and brought it out just above the pulley where he caught it with a rubber hose and clamps. From there he went to an anti-siphon loop before going back to the fitting at the heat exchanger with another length of hose. He didn't epoxy or braze it into the pump though, he still used the rubber O-rings.

It may be just possible to remove the pump from the gear drive with it brazed in like that and have enough clearance from the pulley. It will be tight.
Good luck trying to get hoae barb on it right there.
Might be possible, bit not easy. No way on the turbo version.

You WILL be removing that pump and replacing those seals occasionally. They only last about 1000 hours before they start leaking water at the shaft, and the seals need replacing. The rubber seal to the plastic (!) Gear inside the engine will be OK, but the one on the water pump side of the shaft will blow every 1000 hours or so. You can buy the $65 rebuld kit with new bearings you don't need, or buy just the seal itself on Amazon for $8. Your choice.
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Old 20-12-2019, 09:48   #38
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd002e View Post
This is incredibly helpful! Thank you.

Unfortunately at this point I have already cussed out and forced every single one of these pipes and they are all leaking. I do not think there is any going back but to weld on barbs and start a new, which I would feel comfortable about since I believe I will get a much better fit. I also looked up the heat exchangers and there is a company that re-manufactures these things and they come with hose barbs! Ta-Da! Here is a photo:

Thanks for the info on aftermarket Heat exchanger.


If you go the route of welding hose barbs,I suggest you braze bronze hose barbs to bronze raw water pump.

Same for original heat exchanger-it's bronze also.
The engine block & head are cast iron & not currently threaded.
The circulation pump is cast aluminum,not threaded & no longer available .


Good luck / Len
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Old 20-12-2019, 11:04   #39
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd002e View Post
OK, I went to a machine ahip and had barbs machined and welded on both sides of the pump. I will put it on tomorrow and see how that works.

Total costs in Turkey:
20mm barb: 3 USD
welding: 2.50 USD
machine shop: 8 USD

Attachment 205379
Looks good, hope it fixes the problem
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Old 20-12-2019, 12:08   #40
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

The gasket thickness is sometimes critical. I tried and tried to cut a gasket for the raw water pump on my Onan generator. Either too thick and it would not pump since water would leak internally around the impellor sides, or too thin and it would then leak since the impeller thickness kept the cover from fully seating on the gasket. Tried some Form-A-Gasket, old type, no good, too soft even after curing couple of days. Finally gave up, used only standard silicone seal out of a tube, no gasket. Worked great. I will deal with the mess of removing it in a year or two!
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Old 20-12-2019, 12:18   #41
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by waterman46 View Post
The gasket thickness is sometimes critical. I tried and tried to cut a gasket for the raw water pump on my Onan generator. Either too thick and it would not pump since water would leak internally around the impellor sides, or too thin and it would then leak since the impeller thickness kept the cover from fully seating on the gasket. Tried some Form-A-Gasket, old type, no good, too soft even after curing couple of days. Finally gave up, used only standard silicone seal out of a tube, no gasket. Worked great. I will deal with the mess of removing it in a year or two!


Is that RTV silicone?

I have been dealing with the cover gasket leak for a while and last week finally I had a new cover made in a machine shop out of bronze stock. The shop pointed out that the cover was bent so they made the new one 1mm thicker (about 50%). I used the standard paper gasket that came with it, silicone greased the paper before closing it all of. Voila no leaky cover! Not sure what you may be dealing with in terms of gaskets but a warped cover might be contributing to the issue over there.
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Old 20-12-2019, 13:30   #42
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailah View Post
Snapped the boom on a J40 completely in half at the vang surfing downwind to start of Figawi race on my buddies boat. Carried the boom in 2 pieces through the party tent to many jeers and cheers at Hyannis Yacht Club. Drove to Keiths shop, 4 hours later we drove back with fixed boom. He sleeved and TIG welded it on Friday Memorial Day weekend at 7pm.

Went out the next day and raced, got 2nd in our class.

Still sailing and racing 5 years later.
Yeap this happens. Spent six hours repairing a boom during a dark night west of Ireland racing downwind, boom-less, in atrocious weather having previously broken the boom at the vang. With a hand drill and going through about 10 drill bits we riveted a spare length of spi pole into the boom of our Carter 37. It lasted till Lerwick and onto Hartlepool where we received a replacement boom.

I was silently hoping that this equipment failure would retire us from this, let's say, 'challenging' race, but no, we carried on. Was a long time ago, quite an experience.
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Old 20-12-2019, 15:27   #43
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

When I repowered my first boat in the 80s, I used a Volvo MD11C with those ridiculous seals. Deblen is right on. My mechanic worked on nothing but Volvo motors. All the joints were polished bright. It only goes together one way. If you think you need to force or bend something to make it fit, something is wrong. Done right, it all slid easily together and never leaked. It was fine for 10 years until I got rid of the boat. But itís a system designed for easy manufacturing, not for easy maintenance. I hated it.
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Old 20-12-2019, 15:46   #44
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd002e View Post
OK, I went to a machine ahip and had barbs machined and welded on both sides of the pump. I will put it on tomorrow and see how that works.

Total costs in Turkey:
20mm barb: 3 USD
welding: 2.50 USD
machine shop: 8 USD

Attachment 205379
I was going to suggest elbows if access is an issue. Too late I see but at those prices who cares if you have to redo it.
Looks good, if brazer knows his stuff & it appears he does, problem solved at water pump end.
Much better solution IMO than faffing around with the seals.
Hope you report back that it's a winner
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Old 20-12-2019, 16:21   #45
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Re: How stop these fittings from leaking

I'd be temped to ditch the original RW pump altogether, and go with an electric unit. The two companies that cater to Atomic 4 boaters sell FW cooling kits, as most of the A4's were RW cooled, and they have an electric RW option that makes a lot of sense, giving the owner lots of options for placement.
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