Help with identifying part

[pjbori]

Hello everyone! Small update after a weekend in the boatyard. I've mapped out the system a bit better and hoping that with this we will crack the mystery at last.

Attached is a better picture of the part in question (from hereon referred to as 'device'). As you can see, there are no wires connected to the right side of it, making me believe that the PO stopped using this device as a whole, and decided to only use the left side and supplemented the system with some newer additions. In the next lines I'll try to explain my observations of the system as logically as I can with my limited electric knowledge.

1. The starter battery's positive terminal connects directly to the left side of this 'device' (with a large diameter wire)
2. Then, the following wires depart from the 'device': one wire running to the ignition, through a fuse (this is the wire labelled 'fuse', seen in earlier photos). One thick red wire directly to the starter motor. One thinner red wire to the Bosch Relay to the right. That's it from the 'device'.

Then, the Bosch Relay is connected to various points on what I believe is the engine's alternator. And finally, to the right of the Bosch relay, there is an 'HC-Cargo Generatorregulator 14V', which is also connected to different points on the alternator. I attach photos showing all three ('device', Relay and Regulator). I am also attached a very amateur drawing of the system through my eyes.

Is there a wizard here that can explain to me how this system might work and what the function of each of the three devices is? And whether I could easily replace this old part for a new and safer device that has the same function?

Thank you all for your great inputs so far!

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hi there,

I just embarked on a full rewiring project after examining the state of the onboard electrics after my first season and first boat ever. I'm going slowly, drawing up the diagram as I go, making sure I get a complete overview of all systems before touching it. Today I made it to the engine and noticed that this part - which seems pretty crucial as it is directly connected to the starter - is in a pretty bad shape. I guess it needs replacing, but I'm not sure what it is, can someone help me out (pic attached)?

I know this will be a pretty obvious answer, but remember, first boat, first time touching electrics, so please forgive my naïveté

Thanks!

In a later posting, you suggest that your starter is a dual purpose starter/generator. If this is true, the mystery device is most likely a mechanical voltage regulator. The fact that it apparently has two coils would rule it out as a starter relay. One thing that looks like a coil may not be a coil at all. Mechanical voltage regulators have a carbon pile that is wired in series with the generator's exciter coil. The actual coil actuates a lever who's pressure against the carbon pile varies with the voltage output of the generator. This varies the density of the carbon, and hence its resistance. This variable resistance varies current applied to the exciter coil, thus operates as a feed back loop to control generator output voltage. This is a nut shell description that lacks detail, but at least gives basic principle.


I've not seen one in a boat, but old automotive regulators had a cover. It seems that yours may have once had a cover that would have had identifying data. If you are considering replacing it, you will need the electrical diagram and/or parts list for your engine installation. It is possible that an automotive starter/alternator shop might identify it. But mechanical voltage regulators are very much a thing of the past. It might be that there is a modern electronic regulator would be a direct electronic replacement.

[stormalong]

From your diagram it appears that the "device" is no longer being used as a regulator - it is being used as a relay to control the starter motor.

The diagram shows two devices, a "starter motor" and a "starter". The starter is wired to the alternator. Can you clarify what the "starter" is?

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hello everyone! Small update after a weekend in the boatyard. I've mapped out the system a bit better and hoping that with this we will crack the mystery at last.

Attached is a better picture of the part in question (from hereon referred to as 'device'). As you can see, there are no wires connected to the right side of it, making me believe that the PO stopped using this device as a whole, and decided to only use the left side and supplemented the system with some newer additions. In the next lines I'll try to explain my observations of the system as logically as I can with my limited electric knowledge.

1. The starter battery's positive terminal connects directly to the left side of this 'device' (with a large diameter wire)
2. Then, the following wires depart from the 'device': one wire running to the ignition, through a fuse (this is the wire labelled 'fuse', seen in earlier photos). One thick red wire directly to the starter motor. One thinner red wire to the Bosch Relay to the right. That's it from the 'device'.

Then, the Bosch Relay is connected to various points on what I believe is the engine's alternator. And finally, to the right of the Bosch relay, there is an 'HC-Cargo Generatorregulator 14V', which is also connected to different points on the alternator. I attach photos showing all three ('device', Relay and Regulator). I am also attached a very amateur drawing of the system through my eyes.

Is there a wizard here that can explain to me how this system might work and what the function of each of the three devices is? And whether I could easily replace this old part for a new and safer device that has the same function?

Thank you all for your great inputs so far!

According to your schematic, you have separate starter and alternator units, so the theory of the device being a voltage regulator does not seem to hold. Modern alternators have their own integrated regulator. I find the schematic difficult to trace with overlapping lines. The ignition is only shown as a terminal block. The switch contacts need to be shown. The ignition is shown connected directly to the starter. It should first go through a relay, and then the starter solenoid. I distinguish only two terminals on the relay that is shown, but it should have at least 3: ground, common, and out. Is that a third terminal behind the screw terminal on the right? It would be easier to follow if the relay were drawn schematically, rather than shown as a photo. The starting battery is missing, so I see no current path for the current to get from battery to starter. Sorry, but I think that the schematic needs some refining.

[pjbori]

Fair point, the schematic is pretty chaotic...it's my first drawing, so will try to get it to look a bit better.

The starter battery is on this drawing though, labelled as 'starter' with the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals.

And yes you are right, the third terminal is to the right of the left screw on the relay. It connects to the alternator

[hpeer]

See if these help.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Fair point, the schematic is pretty chaotic...it's my first drawing, so will try to get it to look a bit better.

The starter battery is on this drawing though, labelled as 'starter' with the positive (+) and negative (-) terminals.

And yes you are right, the third terminal is to the right of the left screw on the relay. It connects to the alternator

Yes, if you could clarify the schematic, that would help. So what you have labelled as "starter" is not the starter, but the battery ? It is drawn with three terminals, which adds to the confusion. If you could redraw using the ground symbol for each ground connection, this would greatly simplify the schematic by reducing the number of lines. It would also eliminate the engine block and the brown ground block. And definitely draw the relay as a conventional schematic symbol. Drawing the ignition switch contact arrangement would also help. Also the HC Cargo generator regulator in its schematic form would be another help. The alternator terminals could be better marked. A ground, output, and two exciter terminals would the normal terminals of an alternator, though one exciter terminal could be tied to ground.



I suspect that the small blade type terminal on the relay is for its coil. The large screw terminals are common terminal and switched terminal. But the coil terminal should be tied to the ignition switch. But it is tied to a terminal on the alternator labelled as "P". And it also connects to what I now understand is the battery positive. This would keep the relay energized at all times. I think that the circuit needs some retracing.

[hpeer]

Trying to post again, wiring diagrams.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Trying to post again, wiring diagrams.

These are partial schematics. It is frustrating when equipment manufacturers give incomplete information. For example, the key switch logic is not shown. Each individual contact should be drawn. The "charge regulator" is only a box without function of each terminal given, and no internal schematic. And there are two charge regulators that appear to be different,yet they are marked with the same reference number "14". And what is a charge regulator anyway? Suspect that these are really voltage regulators. The terminology is wanting. Function of each terminal on the engine terminal strip is not given. A symbol marked "D/M" is given, suggesting that it is a dual purpose unit that is both a generator and starter motor, But an another unit marked "G" is also shown. Does this system have two generators? Or is one an option? The parts list gives no manufacturer part number for each component. The manual should include application information for each component.


Many manufacturers are guilty of this problem of providing incomplete information. This is due to sloppiness, and protecting their market. Why give away information to help someone else repair the equipment?


I find that this schematic does not offer much help to understand the circuit. It only requires that more examination and research be done.

[hpeer]

Diesel,

Manufacturers are selling parts not intelligence.

While I heartily agree with your desire to see something better, it is what it is.

It at least gives the OP some idea of what the original intent was and the “official” nomenclature.

IMHO he would be better off if he can find a way to mount a separate alternator. Then, I think, he could wire it like the MD7 variant.

In any case I have the MD6/7 shop manual these are extracted from.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Diesel,

Manufacturers are selling parts not intelligence.

While I heartily agree with your desire to see something better, it is what it is.

It at least gives the OP some idea of what the original intent was and the “official” nomenclature.

IMHO he would be better off if he can find a way to mount a separate alternator. Then, I think, he could wire it like the MD7 variant.

In any case I have the MD6/7 shop manual these are extracted from.

Yes, that is the trouble. Some manufacturers take little responsibility for equipment that they sell. Everything is fine until something fails. Quality service information is essential to make repairs quickly, whether doing the work one's self, or paying specialists. Why should a professional need to be paid to grope in the dark with bad drawings? In electrical trouble shooting, the information of every device, every terminal of every device, every interconnection, every function of every device, and every signal condition must be available to assist the trouble shooter to narrow all the possible problems down to the problem at hand.



Often, experience can provide short cuts to the root of the problem. But that is no excuse for poor quality information. Everybody will not have extensive experience on everything. This is especially true for something like a boat that can be stranded in the most remote places possible where expert assistance does not exist. A solution can be dependent on good information and some basic tools and test equipment.

[pjbori]

Hello again,

I have not been able to get around to redrawing the scheme. However, I have progressed as much as to find an old schematic of the Volvo Penta (attached, nr 24) in Swedish, which shows the part I am looking for! It describes it as the following: 'laddningsregulator och startrelä' which translates into 'charge regulator and starter relay'. However, as there are no wires connected to the right side of the item AND there is a more modern Bosch relay, I suppose it is a logical conclusion that the part still in use, which is wired to
1) the starter battery
2) the starter motor
2) the ignition and
3) the Bosch relay

is in fact a voltage regulator?

Opinions?

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hello again,

I have not been able to get around to redrawing the scheme. However, I have progressed as much as to find an old schematic of the Volvo Penta (attached, nr 24) in Swedish, which shows the part I am looking for! It describes it as the following: 'laddningsregulator och startrelä' which translates into 'charge regulator and starter relay'. However, as there are no wires connected to the right side of the item AND there is a more modern Bosch relay, I suppose it is a logical conclusion that the part still in use, which is wired to
1) the starter battery
2) the starter motor
2) the ignition and
3) the Bosch relay

is in fact a voltage regulator?

Opinions?

I am guessing that the word "charge regulator" is a mistranslation. Voltage regulators are a necessary component in an engine generator or alternator system. Charge regulators are components of solar and wind energy systems. The two are vastly different. In a photo of a previous post there was a component that appeared as though it could be a coil. But I suspect that is is a carbon pile. If it is in fact a carbon pile, then this thing has to be a mechanical voltage regulator. Not sure how deeply this would need to be disturbed to confirm. If it is loaded with copper wire, then my apologies, I am wrong.



But if you can peel back a bit of its covering tape, and there are no turns of wire, but a carbon pile, then my hunch is correct. If course be careful about disturbing the thing. Do no harm. Even pressing on the tape with a finger could sense the feel of turns of wire if it is a coil. Another thing to test is check if there is a spring loaded leaver that contacts the thing. If you can get ohm meter probes on its terminals and measure resistance while applying a bit of hand pressure to the lever or lighten spring pressure, this would further confirm that it is a carbon pile. The resistance should vary. Of course the best thing is to get manufacturer data, even if this means contacting a Volvo dealer and insisting that they track down what might be obsolete information. Car dealers are notorious for ridding themselves of service information for vehicles older than about 10 years, so Volvo marine dealers could be the same.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by pjbori

Hello again,

I have not been able to get around to redrawing the scheme. However, I have progressed as much as to find an old schematic of the Volvo Penta (attached, nr 24) in Swedish, which shows the part I am looking for! It describes it as the following: 'laddningsregulator och startrelä' which translates into 'charge regulator and starter relay'. However, as there are no wires connected to the right side of the item AND there is a more modern Bosch relay, I suppose it is a logical conclusion that the part still in use, which is wired to
1) the starter battery
2) the starter motor
2) the ignition and
3) the Bosch relay

is in fact a voltage regulator?

Opinions?

Just had a closer look at the drawing. There is a part, item 56 close to the "regulator". But 56 does not appear on this section of the parts list. If this can be identified, it may offer a clue. What's with there being both a dynamo and a generator in the system? Both are producers of electricity. I'd noticed two such devices in the schematic in an earlier post.