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Old 11-09-2019, 13:14   #61
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Sure, but i stand by my comment that a filter will pick up contaminants before they hit the engine.

If not, those filters and engine have no place.......anywhere.


Again yes and no.
For an example I believe no automotive type filters are absolute filters, meaning for example if you filter to 2 microns that not every particle larger than 2 microns is filtered out.
So the cleaner the fuel is to start with, the better. Then there is the issue of lubricity, which many think pumps will take the brunt of the damage, but I believe on some designs itís been the injectors.
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Old 11-09-2019, 16:46   #62
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

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Originally Posted by sail sfbay View Post
This is a fascinating thread!!

To answer the question whether ultra low sulfur (ULSD) is #2 diesel. Yes it is.

Thought the forum might be interested in ULSD lubricity specification and why and where a lubricity improver is added.

In 2006 the US Diesel Fuel sulfur specification was lowered from 500 ppm maximum in Low Sulfur Diesel (LSD) to 15 ppmw maximum (10 ppmw in the EU) and was now called Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD). The deeper oil refining desulphurization required to meet the lower sulfur specification resulted in the loss of natural fuel lubricity. The lubricating properties of diesel fuels are important for rotary and distributor type fuel injection pumps to help prevent wear. In these pumps, moving parts are lubricated by the diesel fuel and not engine oil. The ASTM D975 lubricity specification that went into effect on January 1, 2005 was prompted by concerns over the loss of lubricity with the new ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel. Simply put, lubricity is determined by rubbing a metal ball on a flat disc submerged in the fuel being tested to determine scarring and wear. The test methods to determine lubricity are ASTM D6079 and ASTM D7688 Lubricity by HFRR (High Frequency Reciprocating Rig) and the US specification is 520 maximum micron (0.520 mm) wear scar. European lubricity specifications are even more stringent at 460 maximum micron (0.460 mm) wear scar.

ULSD produced at the refinery has a typical wear scar of 600+ microns. To meet the lower ULSD ASTM D975 HFRR lubricity specification a lubricity improver is added to the fuel prior to loading into trucks that transport diesel to road and marine refueling stations and terminals do th. Refiners only do that when they sell finished diesel at their terminal, whereas pipeline terminal operators do that after they receive the diesel by pipeline since the improver is lost during pipeline transport.
Thanks for sorting that out. I was perplexed why they would test the aftermarket additives without the refiners lubricity additive except I guess they didnt want any interference but thats what you do if you put your own additive in.
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Old 11-09-2019, 16:51   #63
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Again yes and no.
For an example I believe no automotive type filters are absolute filters, meaning for example if you filter to 2 microns that not every particle larger than 2 microns is filtered out.
So the cleaner the fuel is to start with, the better. Then there is the issue of lubricity, which many think pumps will take the brunt of the damage, but I believe on some designs itís been the injectors.
Makes me glad to have an engine that can run on vomit.
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Old 11-09-2019, 16:53   #64
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

They had to have a baseline, I guess they chose an unadulterated sample as a baseline.
Who knows if all refiners use the same additives and how these additives will interact with other additives?
Itís however the only actual near as I can tell actual scientific test Iíve seen conducted, itís this test and marketing data from the people trying to sell their products.

To me whatís interesting is to see how many additives do absolutely nothing and or are even worse than nothing.

People think the holy grail is FAA approved, but as far as additives the only thing the FAA is interested in is proof that an additive does no harm, they donít try to substantiate claims.
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Old 13-09-2019, 06:46   #65
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

I carry 2300 gals of diesel. I have only two diesel fuel concerns.

First is water. I am selective where I purchase fuel and keep the tanks as full as possible to reduce condensation. I also use alarmed fuel/water separators.

The second is if I do not run the engines for a protracted period using the diesel fuel it is likely to get growth. Using a biocide to inhibit growth seems a good preventive measure, which I routinely do.

I do not think other measures (i.e. additives - octane and lubricity enhancers) are necessary.
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Old 13-09-2019, 06:52   #66
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

This matter pops up time and time again. the first question is why to use a fuel additive in diesel in the first place?In my view and coming from the oil industry, fuel additives for marine engines are recommended for two purposes only:
a) when biofuel in present (like in Europe up to 7%); fatty-acid-methy-esters (FAME) is unstable and breaks down easily and the fuel shouldn't be stored like it is done in boats with low consumption. Here a biocide additive should be used.
b) modern low sulfur fuels ("S-free") fuels have lower storage stability than the fuels we had 20 years ago and here an additive with proven capability may be used to prevent decomposition. Deutz, the German maker of industrial engines has developed a special additive as they sell lots of smaller engines which end up in construction equipment which receives the regular ignorance when it comes to maintenance but is expected to fire up at any point in time then.
c) in areas of less good requiring quality (central-America), the additive in b) might be really required but sometimes the fuel quality is so poor that even arrives cannot cure it and even engines in commercial vessels die away. As indicated people order jet-fuel as its quality is better controlled and specs are much tighter.
d) I cannot see any other purpose for additives then provided the fuel is made to spec (as it should be as it otherwise would be a breach of emissions regs). Most Diesel fuel will be addivated by the supplier to meet the spec anyway so additional "performance enhancers" to be used by the customer including cetane improvers are a marketing gimmick at best.
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Old 13-09-2019, 07:29   #67
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

Hi there,

i think the problem is more over here in Europe than in the US because our Diesel here consists of 90% Diesel and 10% Biodiesel. The Biodiesel is really the Problem as there is a certain kind of bacteria that eats this, especially in combination with water like you get from condensation in the tanks.
One day my engine stopped and when we inspected the tank there was slimy bacteria in it which eventually clogged the filters and even the fuel pump and the injection system. How it passed the filters we do not know. The complete system had to be cleaned including the 2 tanks filled with 300 liters of fuel in total. A loss of Ä1200 and also a securityrisk if you need the engine and it simply dies on you.
As i have a motorsailor with 2 tanks of 300 liters each the diesel is not used up fast if i use the sails a lot instead and i only need halve of that per year.

So now i regularly treat the diesel with Grotamar which has proven in tests that it is actually the only additive that really works, at least to my knowledge.
No problems for the last 5 years and i can ignore the condensation/water problem as my filters just take it out. So no need to always fill up the tanks.

In case of your boat i would say only treat the fuel if you leave the boat for a longer period and if temperatures are above 15 degrees centigrade as the growth of the bacteria is best between 20 and 35 degrees centigrade. If you go for a ride it wont take long anyway until you need to refill, so i guess you will not really have to worry.

All the best, Max.
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Old 13-09-2019, 07:31   #68
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

There are additives for everything. Personally I am concerned about filter clogging algae. Since it is commonly agreed that water causes algae build up I'm of the opinion that biocides are too late. The most important thing is to keep out water. I looked at many biocides and none of them seem to focus on water treatment. I have found only one treatment that "claims" to remove water from diesel fuel..."CRC Diesel Dry". I treat every tank fill with it. My tanks are only 70 gal each so I don't consider it very expensive. I've used biocides in the past in my previous boat and current one and i had algae build up in both. Biocide/algicide kills algae and causes it to clump in the bottom of the fuel tank, waiting for violent motion when pieces of it will break off and up the fuel feed and into the fuel filter it goes. How many times do you allow that to happen before you have your tanks cleaned which is certainly not a fool proof system for cleaning your fuel unless you have multiple access ports inside of every baffled space. Even polishing systems will only clean floating particulate matter. If you have sediment sitting in the bottom of your tank, polishers don't work. Seqrious polishing system is$1,000 more or less. Isn't a $2 treatment per fill much more cost effective. Please kindly correct me if i'm wrong.
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Old 13-09-2019, 07:31   #69
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

I just had a brand new Yanmar installed on my sailboat, the owners manual says NOT to use biocide additives. I always used it in my old Yanmar. I guess it depends on the age of the engine.
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Old 13-09-2019, 07:38   #70
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

Depends on your travels... when global traveling we *always added a biocides / algecide at every fill up, even if they already were in the fuel. We also always kept tanks full when storing, for condensation, and preferred more full than not when traveling for same reason. Of course we only have 2x 40hp and normally sail so our fuel consumption is a fraction of what twin 490hp engines must consume.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:14   #71
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

I will say from experience MAKE SURE THE ADDITIVES YOU ADD ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER! I once added 2 different additives (can't recall what they were now), but they were incompatible and formed what looked like bits of permatex gasket sealer in the fuel tank. When the boat was underway, fuel in the tank would naturally slosh around and the pickup strainers would clog and the engine would stall. The "permatex like material" would then fall off and I could start the engine until it stalled again.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:34   #72
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

Biobor is amazing stuff. It sterilizes fuel. Can be applied to shock (initial treatment) and after that you can apply very little to keep fuel in top shape. It is outstanding.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:38   #73
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

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Originally Posted by blueprint_33 View Post
This matter pops up time and time again. the first question is why to use a fuel additive in diesel in the first place?In my view and coming from the oil industry, fuel additives for marine engines are recommended for two purposes only:
a) when biofuel in present (like in Europe up to 7%); fatty-acid-methy-esters (FAME) is unstable and breaks down easily and the fuel shouldn't be stored like it is done in boats with low consumption. Here a biocide additive should be used.
b) modern low sulfur fuels ("S-free") fuels have lower storage stability than the fuels we had 20 years ago and here an additive with proven capability may be used to prevent decomposition. Deutz, the German maker of industrial engines has developed a special additive as they sell lots of smaller engines which end up in construction equipment which receives the regular ignorance when it comes to maintenance but is expected to fire up at any point in time then.
c) in areas of less good requiring quality (central-America), the additive in b) might be really required but sometimes the fuel quality is so poor that even arrives cannot cure it and even engines in commercial vessels die away. As indicated people order jet-fuel as its quality is better controlled and specs are much tighter.
d) I cannot see any other purpose for additives then provided the fuel is made to spec (as it should be as it otherwise would be a breach of emissions regs). Most Diesel fuel will be addivated by the supplier to meet the spec anyway so additional "performance enhancers" to be used by the customer including cetane improvers are a marketing gimmick at best.
uhm, water resulting in algea growth ????

Fuels being made to spec is one thing... There's a whoooole lot of stuff that can go wrong between refinery and the nozzle that pumps it into your tanks. And it does. Yes, even in the good ole USA.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:39   #74
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

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Originally Posted by sail4evr View Post
There are additives for everything. Personally I am concerned about filter clogging algae. Since it is commonly agreed that water causes algae build up I'm of the opinion that biocides are too late. The most important thing is to keep out water. I looked at many biocides and none of them seem to focus on water treatment. I have found only one treatment that "claims" to remove water from diesel fuel..."CRC Diesel Dry". I treat every tank fill with it. My tanks are only 70 gal each so I don't consider it very expensive. I've used biocides in the past in my previous boat and current one and i had algae build up in both. Biocide/algicide kills algae and causes it to clump in the bottom of the fuel tank, waiting for violent motion when pieces of it will break off and up the fuel feed and into the fuel filter it goes. How many times do you allow that to happen before you have your tanks cleaned which is certainly not a fool proof system for cleaning your fuel unless you have multiple access ports inside of every baffled space. Even polishing systems will only clean floating particulate matter. If you have sediment sitting in the bottom of your tank, polishers don't work. Seqrious polishing system is$1,000 more or less. Isn't a $2 treatment per fill much more cost effective. Please kindly correct me if i'm wrong.
Joe
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L440 BVI
It's too late when your filters are clogging yes.. sort of.
But wiht a good biocide like Biobor you kill current algea (which will clog your filters for a while) BUT after that it will prevent new growths if you add small amounts after a fill up. It does work.
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Old 13-09-2019, 08:42   #75
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Re: Fuel additives? Yes or no

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Depends on your travels... when global traveling we *always added a biocides / algecide at every fill up, even if they already were in the fuel. We also always kept tanks full when storing, for condensation, and preferred more full than not when traveling for same reason. Of course we only have 2x 40hp and normally sail so our fuel consumption is a fraction of what twin 490hp engines must consume.
This is key. Preventive action is what it is all about.
If you can afford a boat with twin 490hp engines, you can afford a good biocide (which is still a fraction of your fuel cost).
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