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Old 23-03-2023, 08:05   #1
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Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

Iíve seen lots of inexpensive ways that people have polished their fuel, with both permanent systems and removable systems. Allie Rose has an integrated fuel tank, and due to having sat for awhile, there is plenty of gunk contained therein. In fact, while motoring to Charleston (her new home port) from Oriental, NC - I had to deal with an engine failure due to a clogged secondary filter two separate times while in dead calm winds more than 50 miles off the coastÖ my ego got the best of me in the planning phase.

To permananely rectify this problem, I received two quotes, both in excess of $500, for a one time ďpolishingĒ of the fuel in the tank. Iíve never paid anyone to work on the boat other than the air conditioning system, and never want to again. With further research, I found this product - Racor P510MAM. It is a fuel polishing filter with an integrated pump and water detection sensor. I already have two secondary fuel filters (Racor 500 Series), so my game plan is to do the following.

Install this ďintegrated-pump-secondary-fuel-filter-polishing-systemĒ with a three way valve that would allow it to filter fuel in a closed loop back into the tank, as well as to serve as a backup, emergency fuel delivery system to route fuel to the engine with the use of an additional three way valve. I think that the entire system could be pretty neat once itís all said and done. I am also installing three remote, ďdashĒ (cockpit locker) mounted fuel pressure gauges to monitor the resistance of the fuel filters while underway.

Iíd love any feedback that you are able to share. I believe that what I am doing is likely extremely overkill, however, my other half has pretty much refused to go offshore without a three-times-redundant fuel delivery system after that experience (it was her first time on a boatÖ I also didnít think that one through either).

A few additional notes for further clarification.

Iím using ⅜Ē A1 hose for all fuel pick up, coming from the same ďtapĒ as the main fuel output to avoid drilling into the tank and having to open it up.
Am I being lazy here? Should I create a secondary tap? Or should I not splice into that line with a three way valve at all, and simply use a copper tube that routes directly into the 1Ē access port that is raised up from the tank?
Iím going to wire the pump with Ancor 16 gauge duplex to an independent circuit. The total distance is less than five feet. It also has an independent on/off switch built into its design.
The pump moves A LOT of fuel - 60 GPH. Iím slightly worried about the diesel fuel foaming up. Contemplating a timer of some sort, but likely will just ensure not to run it in a closed loop for more than 30 minutes.

A few additional questions.
The specs from the manufacture recommend a ⅜Ē input and output line. In order to splice into the fuel line after the secondary filter and primary fuel pump (but before the primary fuel filter), it would be easiest and best for me to use a ⅜Ē to 5/16Ē NPT adapter. Is that fine? Or will this cause wear and tear on the motor of the filter-pump?
Perhaps most importantly - there is a 5/16Ē fuel line that goes from the primary fuel filter attached to the engine, directly back into the fuel tank. I presume that this is for excess air to bleed back into the tank? Iíd like to splice into that line with a three way brass shut off valve in order to create the closed loop polishing system back to the tank. Is that fine?
Actually - this is my most important question. 60 GPH is significantly more than the fuel pump that pulls fuel to the engine would ever move. Is this a problem, trying to use this as a backup emergency fuel routing system? The engine will only take as much fuel as it needs, correct? Just wanting to make sure that Iím not wasting time and money on fittings and hose to route this for such a circumstance if itís not going to work/would not be necessary.

Itís probably pretty difficult to understand what Iím asking and describing - Iíve run through countless diagrams and ideas thus far. Just for fun, Iím also incorporating into the system some remote dash mounted pressure gauges.

Iíll be sure to post photos of the entire system once complete. While Iím at it in the engine compartment, other projects I hope to continue working on (time and budget allowing). I plan on removing all of the old insulation and installing ďsound downĒ, 2Ē thick insulation throughout the engine bay. A photo of the quote is attached. Continue to clean up all old wiring in the engine room area. The old owner allegedly has an oil change kit in a storage unit back in North Carolina. I need to get up there to pick it up. I figured while working on the engine, might as well change the oil. It only has about 250 hours on it, but I donít think it has ever been changed. Lastly, I hope to learn more about the impeller and how to replace it, as this is something Iíve never had to do. Is this something people ever replace preemptively?

Anyway, thatís all. Iíll post photos of before and after once finished, or if youíd like a diagram of what Iím considering doing, Iíll be happy to take the time to draw it out in a larger scale for you and post too. Thank you, very much, for any and all feedback you may have.
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Old 23-03-2023, 10:58   #2
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

You need to deal with the tank first with a good fuel conditioner that kills the bugs and makes it easier for the Racor to separate the water. Usually a 3x dose of conditioner. After you do this there will be more debris caught in the primary filter until the tank is clean.
Fuel pumps designed to supply an engine usually have a limited pressure. Others used for moving fuel can create high pressure in the fuel lines that could cause leaks. Some have a built in pressure relief that ports over pressure fuel back to the pump intake. You need to see what your pump is rated for pressure. You may need a pressure relief valve. Plumbing the pump with smaller piping will make the pump work harder, run hotter, draw more power, and wear out sooner.

Your injector pump probably will not pass extra fuel. Questions like this should include engine make and model, fuel tank size, etc.

Fuel of today is no longer formulated for long storage, burnability, lubrication of the fuel system, etc. but to reduce emissions. Fuel additives dissipate over time. And fuel that sits too long goes bad, but usually can be burned with a strong dose of a good fuel conditioner and some new fuel. The way to avoid this problem is to use a fuel conditioner when you refuel. I do every time. I've been running diesels since 1960 and never had a fuel problem. I have bought boats with problems like yours and fixed it like described. Before the EPA started screwing with diesel formulation, fuel conditioners were rarely needed.
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Old 23-03-2023, 11:11   #3
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

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Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
You need to deal with the tank first with a good fuel conditioner that kills the bugs and makes it easier for the Racor to separate the water. Usually a 3x dose of conditioner. After you do this there will be more debris caught in the primary filter until the tank is clean.
Fuel pumps designed to supply an engine usually have a limited pressure. Others used for moving fuel can create high pressure in the fuel lines that could cause leaks. Some have a built in pressure relief that ports over pressure fuel back to the pump intake. You need to see what your pump is rated for pressure. You may need a pressure relief valve. Plumbing the pump with smaller piping will make the pump work harder, run hotter, draw more power, and wear out sooner.

Your injector pump probably will not pass extra fuel. Questions like this should include engine make and model, fuel tank size, etc.

Fuel of today is no longer formulated for long storage, burnability, lubrication of the fuel system, etc. but to reduce emissions. Fuel additives dissipate over time. And fuel that sits too long goes bad, but usually can be burned with a strong dose of a good fuel conditioner and some new fuel. The way to avoid this problem is to use a fuel conditioner when you refuel. I do every time. I've been running diesels since 1960 and never had a fuel problem. I have bought boats with problems like yours and fixed it like described. Before the EPA started screwing with diesel formulation, fuel conditioners were rarely needed.

Engine is a Yanmar 4JH5E. I've attached a photo of the current fuel pump - looks like it needs to be replaced if you ask me! Still need to find the best place to source that part.

What about a recommended fuel conditioner that you've been having success with for the past half a century?

Do you have a recommended pressure relief valve? I presume that would be easily plumbed in to the same line that I plan on using when the fuel polisher is being run in a closed loop (the line that runs directly back to the tank).

If plumbing the pump with smaller piping will make the pump work harder, run hotter, draw more power, and wear out sooner - is there any way to get around this issue other than installing a new tap into the tank that would accept the flow from 3/8" ID hose?

Fuel tank size is 70 gallons.

Maybe I'm trying to do too much? If so, I'm not afraid to take an alternative route. Please let me know if that's the case.

I suppose that what may be the easiest thing to do is to mount the P510MAM unit independent of the current system, and use a copper pipe that I could put into the filler cap within the engine bay (directly to the bottom of the tank) for purposes of intaking fuel, and the plumb the output of the P510MAM back in the same way. I just thought it'd be neat (and possible) to run this system as an emergency fuel pump too.
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Old 23-03-2023, 11:14   #4
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

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Old 23-03-2023, 11:35   #5
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

Do you have a clean out access to the tank?

Surface rust on the lift pump does not make it bad. I'd get rid of the hose clamps and get some AWABS or all stainless ones.

You can polish fuel with any pump, It just depends on how long you're willing to wait. I have a polishing set up that uses a 7psi pump that I can use in case the lift pump craps out. I also have a 4JH5(E). How much fuel do you have? And just the one tank?

First off KILL the bugs. BioBor works well. If you have a clean out hatch on the tank I would suck the fuel out from the tank so you can clean inside the tank and baffles. I'd also blow the line back with compressed air as you would be surprised how much junk lives in your lines, especially at 90* elbows. When to suck the fuel out run it through a 30 micron or less filter. I use a large 10 micron on my set up. Your primary filter is likely 30 micron. The one on the engine is 5 micron. If you only have the one tank get or borrow some jerry jugs or a fuel drum. Give away fuel if you have to but the best way to clean out a tank is by getting in there with lint free towels and physically clean it out.
Let the fuel settle a day or two before putting it back in. The dead bug skeletons will settle to the bottom along with any water. Change the o-ring on your fuel filler cap. Lube the o-ring with appropriate grease.

Walbro FRB13-2 is a good fuel pump. Or just buy another lift pump but it'll be slow. I plumbed and wired mine in so I can bleed fuel filters quickly. Or polish from one tank to another.
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Old 23-03-2023, 11:57   #6
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

A couple things:


* Is that fuel pump factory? My 4JH2E uses a mechanical fuel pump on the side of the engine just forward of the oil filter, but that is 3 generations and 20 years older than yours.


* I suspect that the existing 5/16 is fine. Sure, more is always better.


* #16 wire is the absolute bare minimum by ABYC for any power wire regardless of load, and I personally think it's one size too small. I like to use #14 for most everything.


* Those "pressure gauges" are normally "vacuum gauges." In a normal installation, you go from tank to Racor (I'm intentionally not using the often confused terms "primary" and "secondary!") to vacuum gauge to fuel pump to Yanmar filter to engine. That puts the gauge in the suction side of the pump, and the amount of vacuum indicates the amount of effort to pull the fuel through the filter. Note, you will see about 1" of vacuum for every inch of lift from the tank to the gauge, even when off, as that is the lift of the fuel in the line.


* Racor recommends that any fuel pump be AFTER the filter, as the pump emulsifies the water and makes it harder for the filter to separate it. On my boat, I have an electric pump inline, a "utility pump," and I moved it to BEFORE the filter. While that would be less than ideal for filtering, it allows me to use the pump to fill the filters after a change.


* You could possibly make a cheap alternative to a complete upgrade, by installing a fuel pump (or using the existing pump) with appropriate plumbing to run a slower fuel flow through your existing Racor filters. Maybe not 60 GPH, but if you push 5GPH for a week, you move a lot of fuel!
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Old 23-03-2023, 12:11   #7
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

You don't say what you're getting for the $500 polish quote, or why you call it permanent. If it's a simple polish from a mobile service, you're paying a lot for their travel even though your quantity is small (they're probably used to doing hundreds if not thousands of gallons at a time). There are some fixed places (typically at fuel docks) that might be cheaper because of this.

I think the Racor 510 is overkill for you and you could achieve similar results cheaper / easier.

Also, the problem I see is that I'm not sure how effective of a polish you'll get by drawing from and discharging back into the same tank. There will likely be some fuel that never gets into the system (outside of the suction and return ports). This applies to proposed Racor system and what I mention below.

I forget the exact plumbing arrangement (and I'm not at the boat), but my boat simply has a secondary (as in off the engine, not a reference to size) auxiliary fuel pump mounted a few feet from the Racors (dual unit). I think it might be as simple as two valves: one that selects engine vs aux pump and one that directs outflow from Racor to engine or back to tank. This pump can be used as backup to engine mounted pump (supposedly, I haven't done it).

So, we have two fuel tanks, are able to draw from one tank, send through filter and then into the other tank. I've only polished the fuel this way once "in anger." Can't do it while motor is on and it takes a long time, as the aux pump is small/slow (roughly same as on engine, don't know exactly).

Depending on how much fuel is left in your tank, it may be worth paying to have it cleaned once. Or if not much left, run it as low as practical and open it up and clean it yourself (assuming you have the access). The additives work too, but for cleaning a known dirty tank that's over half full will go through a lot of filters and still risk clogging at an inopportune time.

Not sure what to do about the one tank issue...


(Yes, I see a couple posts that showed up while I was typing but posting anyway.)
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Old 23-03-2023, 12:24   #8
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

Oh, as a related side note. My not be possible on your boat, and probably expensive regardless. But a though to file in the memory banks.



Our boat has upgraded after market tanks, designed by another Saga owner and installed on multiple boats. In addition to being significantly larger than factory, they have a custom pickup arrangement. At the forward (lowest) end of the tank is a sump about 6" long and 1" wide, that sits about 1" below the main tank floor. The pickup then sits near the bottom of this sump (and therefore lower than the entire rest of the tank). This allows gunk/water/etc to migrate to the sump and be picked up by the suction line and get filtered as it occurs.


"Conventional wisdom" is the reverse -- set the pickup 1/2" off the bottom so you don't get any water. This, of course, allows it to accumulate until there is 1/2" of mucky water at the bottom, which stirs up in a seaway and clogs the filters in one quick slug.



Right as we bought the boat, before we had even launched, I mistakenly put about 50 gallons of fresh water in a fuel tank. OOPS. Hooked up a pump to the fuel suction line, and pulled fluid until it turned from water to fuel. Had to drain the Racor filter once after about 2 hours of motoring, and never saw water again. The system works VERY well.
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Old 23-03-2023, 13:08   #9
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV Allie Rose View Post
I believe that what I am doing is likely extremely overkill,.
A fuel polishing system is a worthwhile addition to any cruising boat.

A few comments:

Rather than buying a proprietary system such as the Racor P510MAM, it is usually cheaper to buy a standard Racor filter and a fuel pump. This also has the advantage that the fuel filters are the same as the engine filters, reducing the number of spares that are required.

It is helpful to have the polishing pick-up at the very bottom of the tank, below the level of the engine pick up.

Returning fuel to same tank as the draw is no problem. The idea with fuel polishing is to run the fuel through the filter multiple times.

Using a polishing system helps to keep the fuel clean, free of water and bug free, but it is not the only step that should be taken. Buy the best fuel possible, filter and test the fuel before adding it to the tank, and use a biocide.

I would not be too concerned about the fuel hose diameter, but make sure it is compatible with the pump capacity. Polishing can be done with large or small fuel pumps. With a smaller pump you need to polish for longer, but smaller pumps use less electricity and are also quieter. We use a medium sized pump for our polishing system, but it will still turn over around 3,500 L of fuel a day.
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Old 23-03-2023, 13:39   #10
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
Do you have a clean out access to the tank?

First off KILL the bugs. BioBor works well. If you have a clean out hatch on the tank I would suck the fuel out from the tank so you can clean inside the tank and baffles. I'd also blow the line back with compressed air as you would be surprised how much junk lives in your lines, especially at 90* elbows. When to suck the fuel out run it through a 30 micron or less filter. I use a large 10 micron on my set up. Your primary filter is likely 30 micron. The one on the engine is 5 micron. If you only have the one tank get or borrow some jerry jugs or a fuel drum. Give away fuel if you have to but the best way to clean out a tank is by getting in there with lint free towels and physically clean it out.
Let the fuel settle a day or two before putting it back in. The dead bug skeletons will settle to the bottom along with any water. Change the o-ring on your fuel filler cap. Lube the o-ring with appropriate grease.

^^^^ this is what needs to be done first and foremost.

I did something similar many years back after purchasing our boat that had been on the hard for a few years w/2 full tanks (>200gal.) Made a "polishing system" from a racor 500 and an automotive fuel pump. While I was working on other systems in the boat, I pumped out all the fuel out of each tank into 55 gal barrels thru a 20 micron filter w/a pick up on the bottom of the tank. After removing the fuel, inspected the tanks and was very surprised there wasn't much sludge in them. Wiped out the tanks, transferred the fuel back into the tank w/a 5 micron filter. (repeated the same process w/the other tank). Added cetane boost and didn't clog a single filter on the 1100nm trip.

Would highly suggest this process for your new to you boat, since will save you major headaches from clogged filters.
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Old 23-03-2023, 14:37   #11
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

There is some confusion about polishing systems because there are really two types:

1. A temporary polishing system:
This can be done professionally or as a DIY system. It uses a powerful pump to ensure enough agitation of the tank. This is typically done only every few years or perhaps once a year as part of winterisation. Typically the polishing will done over a few hours.

2. A permanent system:
This system primarily relies on the boatís motion to stir up the tank so a smaller pump can be used. Generally the system is used regularly, perhaps even daily. When sailing it may be run continually and it is often left on for 24 hours or so after a trip to catch debris and water as it settles to the bottom.

Both systems are a help. One big advantage of a permanent system is by filtering very high volumes of fuel, any problem will quickly become noticeable with clogged polishing filters. This warning happens way before the engine filters are likely to give problems, as these filters are processing three or four orders of magnitude less fuel than the polishing filters.
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Old 23-03-2023, 14:59   #12
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
There is some confusion about polishing systems because there are really two types:

1. A temporary polishing system:
This can be done professionally or as a DIY system. It uses a powerful pump to ensure enough agitation of the tank. This is typically done only every few years or perhaps once a year as part of winterisation. Typically the polishing will done over a few hours.

2. A permanent system:
This system primarily relies on the boatís motion to stir up the tank so a smaller pump can be used. Generally the system is used regularly, perhaps even daily. When sailing it may be run continually and it is often left on for 24 hours or so after a trip to catch debris and water as it settles to the bottom.

Both systems are a help. One big advantage of a permanent system is by filtering very high volumes of fuel, any problem will quickly become noticeable with clogged polishing filters. This warning happens way before the engine filters are likely to give problems, as these filters are processing three or four orders of magnitude less fuel than the polishing filters.
Yes, except that many permanent systems are like mine, where the polishing filters and the engine filters are the same ones. (I change after polishing to have a fresh one ready for the engine, probably wasting a little life of the filter.)
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Old 23-03-2023, 15:32   #13
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

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Yes, except that many permanent systems are like mine, where the polishing filters and the engine filters are the same ones. (I change after polishing to have a fresh one ready for the engine, probably wasting a little life of the filter.)
I would describe this as a temporary polishing system.

As you point out, many people temporarily use their engine filter housing when setting up this type of DIY polishing system.

If you are using the system frequently, often daily, as is done with permanent polishing system, it is not practical to change the filter when switching between polishing and engine use. Usually with a permanent polishing the system the components are completely independent from the engine supply system (preferably including a seperate lower pick up). Two different filter housings are nearly always used.
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Old 23-03-2023, 15:52   #14
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

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I would describe this as a temporary polishing system.

As you point out, many people temporarily use their engine filter housing when setting up this type of DIY polishing system.

If you are using the system frequently, often daily, as is done with permanent polishing system, it is not practical to change the filter when switching between polishing and engine use. Usually with a permanent polishing the system the components are completely independent from the engine supply system (preferably including a seperate lower pick up). Two different filter housings are nearly always used.
Agree that it's not for daily use. But not DIY, manufacturer supplied (standard equipment). I think it fills two roles: polishing and backup fuel pump. IMHO it works decently and is a good compromise. Maybe emergency or part-time polishing is a good description.

Separate permanent system is nice, but cost and space (second is probably more important).
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Old 23-03-2023, 16:04   #15
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Re: Fancy(ish) fuel delivery and polishing system... and remote pressure gauges

I should add that I think daily polishing is excessive. Yes, you can get a bad patch of fuel, and then you would have to polish. But in general, once clean(-ish) fuel is in the tank, it should stay that way for a while. Especially if modern additives are used.

But, you know, YMMV.
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