Extended-Life Coolant - the Orange Stuff

[ggray]

I just heard that ELC is now in disfavor, that it has been found "corrosive" to gaskets, causing leaks. If this is true, it would explain why I was having a hard time finding it.

Has anyone here heard of this, or experienced a problem with it?

All the flushing I did some years ago switching to ELC, now it looks like I need to do it all over again....

[gonesail]

i had the orange coolant in my GMC truck and was advised by my mechanic to replace it with the yellow stuff .. so i did.

[ggray]

Thanks gonesail. It was a guy running a truck shop that told me so it must be commercial fleets that first experienced the problem.

Anybody else? In my original post I said I was having trouble finding ELC, but I should have said I couldn't find the brand (Havoline, now Chevron) I had used. Other brands were on the shelf, so someone is buying. Seems to me this could be a serious problem.

[Ziggy]

Check the thread on sailnet on the same topic: Beneteau vs. Yanmar – Green vs. Red Cooling Fluid - SailNet Community

Yanmar will not honor the warranty in the US unless you use ELC and requires you to change it every two years. I use Shell Rotella, so far with no adverse effects.

[cburger]

That's funny when I took my car to the mechanic to have the coolant changed he indicated that coolant basicly last for ever and doesn't need to be replaced ??

[GordMay]

Since antifreeze is clear when it is manufactured, and water is clear, dye is used to colour the antifreeze for identification, and marketing purposes.
The colour of antifreeze is no longer an accurate indicator as to whether it is an IAT, OAT, HOAT or NOAT formulation.
Different manufacturers may use different dye colours delineating different chemistries.

The Colour of Antifreeze ➥ http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/05-2.pdf

[Ziggy]

from the Shell Rotella answers page:

As engines have changed over the last 10-15 years, the use of aluminum-engine and cooling-system components has become more common. A nitrite additive, whose main role was to prevent cylinder-liner pitting, is not compatible with aluminum. Shell continuously strives to provide its customers with the most technologically advanced products and will introduce a new formulation of Shell Rotella® ELC that does not contain nitrites. The new formulation, called Shell Rotella® ULTRA ELC, will still be compatible with older engines and cooling systems that do not require a coolant with nitrites. It will offer outstanding resistance to oxidation and corrosion protection at higher temperatures, compared to previous formulations. This is particularly important for new emission engines, especially those with EGR.

[Unicorn Dreams]

We used ELC in our tractor trailers and when we retired the trucks all had close to 1,000,000 miles on them with no problems..
This works out to approximately 16-18000 hrs per engine. That's team driving, about 4 to 4 1/2 years of use..

[delmarrey]

Below is the specs that Yanmar puts in their 'Operation Manual'. There is more then one type of Dex-Cool. You have to go by the spec # (upper RH corner of picture). I found Dex-Cool in a lot of places but it didn't have the right spec #, but I finally found it as a Chevron product (Merged w/Texaco) in the NAPA stores. And it is an orange color.

Originally Posted by Ziggy

Yanmar will not honor the warranty in the US unless you use ELC and requires you to change it every two years. I use Shell Rotella, so far with no adverse effects.

It's the LLC you want not the ELC.
.

[Ziggy]

Is there a real difference between "LLC" and "ELC" or is it just a different name for the same thing?

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Ziggy

just a different name for the same thing?

Basically, it's more of a manufacturer jargon.

Originally Posted by ponderosaTX

The "standard green" coolant in 2000-2005 MPVs is Mazda Long Life Coolant (LLC), a first generation Japanese P-OAT (phosphated organic acid technology) coolant developed by CCI Corporation, the leading coolant manufacturer in Japan. It uses a completely different chemistry from traditional North American green coolant, which is laden with silicates and borates. Mazda LLC contains no silicates and no borates, but lots of phosphates and some organic acids. I suspect it has essentially the same chemistry as Toyota Long Life Coolant (also developed by CCI) which is described in patent disclosure HEAT TRANSFER FLUID COMPOSITIONS FOR COOLING SYSTEMS CONTAINING MAGNESIUM OR MAGNESIUM ALLOYS as "an organic acid based coolant containing benzoic acid, phosphoric acid, molybdate, azoles, 2-phosphono-butane-1,2,4-tricarboxylic acid, nitrate, dye, antifoam, and water soluble calcium and magnesium salts".

The best replacement for Mazda LLC is Mazda Extended LIfe Coolant (ELC), Type FL22, which is a second generation Japanese P-OAT coolant introduced in the 2006 model year. It is also available in rebranded form as Motorcraft Specialty Green Engine Coolant because Ford recently adopted it as factory fill in vehicles equipped with engines jointly developed by Ford and Mazda (including all Ford Edge, Flex, Fusion, and Taurus vehicles). See FCSD Chemicals and Lubricants. I have not been able to find an ingredients list for Mazda ELC but the journal article "Coolant Development in Asia" suggests that it has less phosphates than Mazda LLC and an enhanced 2-EHA-free organic acid package to make it last longer. (See http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/JAI100368.htm). Mazda explicitly recommends coolants that are silicate-free and borate-free. Other Japanese manufactures including Honda and Toyota also stipulate that the coolant must not contain 2-EHA (2 ethyl-hexanoic acid).

Peak Global Lifetime antifreeze is obviously not fully equivalent to Mazda LLC or Mazda ELC. because it contains no phosphates. In addition, it is not clear how close the organic acid package in Peak Global is to Mazda LLC or Mazda ELC since the composition of all three products is proprietary and I only have an (inferred) ingredients list for Mazda LLC. AFAIK, the only information that Old World Industries has published on Peak Global is that it is silicate-free, phosphate-free (an advantage?) and 2-EHA free.

I suspect Yanmar hasn't changed their manuals lately.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

Basically, it's more of a manufacturer jargon.



I suspect Yanmar hasn't changed their manuals lately.

I recently tried to top up a Nissan Murano. What a pain to try to find out what is what.

The owners manual says use Nissan genuine antifreeze or equivalent. Right!

The dealer does not know the formulation needed. Silicate and Borate are the terms I have heard but no one seems to know whether it should be in it or not.

Now there is this Phosphated Organic Acid to find out about.

Sheeeeeeiiiittttt!

And I have no idea what the Westerbeke has in it but it is green. So what. Now there are greens of all sorts. Sheeeeeeiiiiitttttt!

All I know about Dex Cool is it's other name - Death Cool.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I recently tried to top up a Nissan Murano. What a pain to try to find out what is what.

The owners manual says use Nissan genuine antifreeze or equivalent. Right!

The dealer does not know the formulation needed. Silicate and Borate are the terms I have heard but no one seems to know whether it should be in it or not.

Now there is this Phosphated Organic Acid to find out about.

Sheeeeeeiiiittttt!

And I have no idea what the Westerbeke has in it but it is green. So what. Now there are greens of all sorts. Sheeeeeeiiiiitttttt!

All I know about Dex Cool is it's other name - Death Cool.

I use to have a Pathfinder motor (VW) so I used the red stuff from the VW dealers or Bow Wow Auto parts. The green stuff (in '02) was in the motor when I got the boat and in one winter of sitting it eat up the aluminum fresh water pump, thermostat housing and a head side mount casting to the hoses.

[ggray]

Thanks all!
I'll check with Mack Boring for the latest.
I drained and flushed the engines and water heater lines today, so ready to go either way.