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Old 21-02-2020, 07:46   #76
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

Everything is a question of budget and balance in the vessel price compared the engines shape. The major issue could be damages due the électrolyse that you can see on the stern drive or that you can see if there is bubbles in the heat exchangers
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Old 21-02-2020, 08:04   #77
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

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Originally Posted by GoneDiving View Post
I'm at the very early planning stages of looking for a sub-50ft offshore cruiser/dive vessel and am becoming more and more impressed with converted Cray/Lobster trawlers as an option to allow me to island hop and, as skills and experience improve, head to remote areas of PNG, Marshall Islands etc.

Drive power in used vessels tend to fall into two categories: newer, more efficient and reliable but more technical to maintain engines and older, thirstier but dead simple ones. Older engines also seem to be far less "sexy" and significantly depress asking prices.

As extremes, if I look at a Detroit 671 vs a Yanmar 4LV producing 100 shaft hp, the 671 will use ~30% more fuel, at near half the revs, a bunch more noise but has a life expectancy of forever, user replaceable parts and servicing at comapratively very low prices.

I'm fairly mechanically minded so am leaning towards the old and simple so that I can repair faults whenever and wherever they may occur. Most likely a middle ground of Gardiner or Ford Lees/Lehman.

What are others preferences for remote and/or passage making vessels? What have I missed?

Many thanks
had a pair of older 1979 twin Perkins 160T diesels in a 10 year old boat bought with 4500 hours showing. NO experience with diesels. Went to a one-day diesel class and ran that boat for 26 years with one underway failure (heat exchanger fell apart - not bonded to ground until after repair). One failure at dock - pilot house throttle cable broke and immediately !!! at bridge one shift cable broke. Talk about a Cluster F&%$ ! I did pay attention to oil and fuel cleanliness and heat exchangers (3) cleaning and one replacement cycle - can't vote enough for these "blues brothers). Song: "older women" comes to mind and may apply to many tech "advances" as well - best of luck
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Old 21-02-2020, 08:17   #78
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

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Boating seems to be full of rules of thumb. Is there on for approximate hp requirements for a non sailing displacement vessel operating in the real world?
...
4 HP per displacement ton is a rough rule of thumb that some use.

Another bad thing about the modern computerized engines that I have not seen mentioned is that they need electrical power to operate. At least the JD engines do per a conversation we had with the JD representatives we talked to a few years ago. No electrical power and the engine will not run.

For some of the JD engines we have looked at, the newer engines get worse MPG than the older models.

Later,
Dan
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Old 21-02-2020, 08:32   #79
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

Here's some data you might find interesting. On SAGA, a 65' Tom Wylie design ketch, the main engine was a Detroit 4/71.

The boat has been around the world twice, California to Hawaii and back 3 times, San Francisco to Auckland NZ and back with 4 years in the S. Pacific, San Francisco to Alaska, then to Victoria BC, from there to New England via the canal, New England to Europe and back, extensive cruising in the Med while in Europe, New England to the Carribean and back five times.

During that entire time, the Detroit 4/71 pushed the boat for about 40% of the miles. With the exception of a rebuild in Auckland due to damage done by a boatyard, the only additional maintenance on the engine was to replace the injector pump. That took about 3 hours and the pump (a rebuilt from a bus engine supplier) was $385.

No special tools, no electronics, no drama. The Detroit engine is fully debugged, with a ready supply of parts available worldwide, and can be fixed by anyone with even rudimentary skills. Those three things can't be said about any of the modern diesel engines. For me, that makes the decision clear.
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Old 21-02-2020, 08:39   #80
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

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Originally Posted by Beau.Vrolyk View Post
....During that entire time, the Detroit 4/71 pushed the boat for about 40% of the miles. With the exception of a rebuild in Auckland due to damage done by a boatyard, the only additional maintenance on the engine was to replace the injector pump. That took about 3 hours and the pump (a rebuilt from a bus engine supplier) was $385....
And you can buy a complete fuel pump repair kit, including gears and shaft (but not shaft bushings, which I seem to remember were replaceable) for 75.00...
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Old 21-02-2020, 08:42   #81
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

Why not go with one of the non electronic Yanmar options. They may not be legal for sale in the US (yet) and EU (probably never) but you can buy them in most other countries. There's the tried and tested 4LH series in 3 flavours from 160 - 240 hp or for even more economy the 4JH3-DTE at 125 hp is a model that has been around for decades. All are normal non electronic fuel pumps. Also Yanmar parts network world-wide is second to none.

These all mechanical models still comply to very strict IMO Tier 2 emission standards and as anybody knows Yanmar's are well know for their lack of smoke.

Full disclosure I am the Yanmar dealer here in Trinidad so I am very biased but I give people this mechanical vs electronic advice all the time. Not many places in the world sell ultra low sulphur fuel that these modern electronic engines prefer.
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Old 21-02-2020, 08:48   #82
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

Yanmar make the best small diesel Engines, Beta are good too.
If you want ultimate reliability and are not concerned by noise find an old Lister Aircooled and get it reconditioned
Assume your not having sails?
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Old 21-02-2020, 08:54   #83
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

Engines: We have had two smaller Yanmars in our cruising cat going on 16 years -- and with the exception of a failed starter solenoid (after 15 years) have not needed a single repair or even major service (beyond what I could do myself).


These are ideal engines in my opinion -- when I hit the switch, they start. They run until I shut them off.



All I have to do is make sure the starting batteries are in good shape and the fuel clean.


(These little four cylinder Yanmars are not electronically controlled.)
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Old 21-02-2020, 09:05   #84
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

I had a Yanmar 2GM in a Mirage 35 a few years back. Fully mechanical and started every time but sometimes a challenge in cold weather. Never an issue with reliability. Even had a hand crank. No electrical requirement at all. Great little engine.
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Old 21-02-2020, 09:44   #85
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

You might want to consider a Beta, they are really just Kubota tractor engines, simple, reliable, easy to service and in our experience easy to get parts for.
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Old 21-02-2020, 10:06   #86
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

A friend went up the Rhine, the Main and across to the Danube to the Black Sea a couple years ago in his cat with 2 Yanmars. Somewhere in Eastern Europe he lost a rod bearing and needed a new crankshaft. You’d think with all the Yanmars around the world a crank would not be hard to source. We searched the world over and thought we found the only one left in a supply house in Japan, but although it was in their computer it didn’t exist. He finally bought a new engine ( actually for less than the rebuild would have been had the crank existed) and continued on.

The point is, even if Yanmars usually last forever, if you do end up needing parts you may come up dry.
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Old 21-02-2020, 10:07   #87
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

I’ve not read the whole thread, but have issues with the premise.
Old does not mean easy to repair,
New does not mean hard to repair.

If you have the software and a spare injector and ECU, common rail is much, much easier to repair.
Anyone who thinks overhauling a HP old style injector pump is easier than swapping out an ECU with two cannon plugs is mistaken.

Now if a manufacturer has chosen to not allow you to have the software and or requires a spare ECU to be reprogrammed with software that only they have access to, then give that manufacturer a pass.

Not all manufacturers play this game, some, GM for instance many years ago released the code used in their LS and LT engines for auto’s spawning a plethora of hotrodding, keeping the GM small block as the engine to hot rod.

In the late 90’s I was using LS-1 edit to reprogram the ECU on our Z28, then our SS, and lastly our Cadillac CTS-V.

http://carputing.tripod.com/LS1Edit.htm

It’s all up to the manufacturer, but with the proper software, a modern engine is a LOT easier to maintain, than old mechanical designs.
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Old 21-02-2020, 10:22   #88
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

Don't forget about the Cummins. They are very reliable and easy to get parts for. I have the B3.3 and is a great engine. You can find them on the internet at Transatlantic diesel.com
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Old 21-02-2020, 10:35   #89
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

Go simple non electronic controlled, non turbo. Brand name, Perkins, Lehman, etc. in smaller engines, But at 50 ft, there are some bigger engines that I'm not familiar with other than Detroit... Some Caterpillar are very good, evidently some are not.. depending on model.
Talk with fishermen.
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Old 21-02-2020, 11:14   #90
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Re: Engines: Old and easy to repair vs New and reliable.

We are 15 tonnes. Ketch. 14metres. Has a Perkins 4-236. 85 hp. At 6 knots we use 4 lph so about 1.5 nm per litre. Zero problems. Easy to maintain which is really just sacrificial anodes and oil and filters and impeller. Parts are dead easy.

Previous Boat was 12 tonnes. 12metres. Lees Ford 2712 75 hp. At 6 knots she used 3 to 3.5 lph so a bit better on consumption. Again zero problems. Same maintenance. Same for parts.
Both engines natural and both had heaps of power.

Most fishing boats in NZ use the Ford Lehman 100 hp natural and do thousands of hours. They don’t choose that engine lightly. It’s bullet proof.

Pete
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