Electric Propulsion Update

[SunDevil]

The issue is how many will they sell? They need to make enough to stay in business, but have a honest price to get people to purchase from them.

I enjoyed reading the update from Hogan. Hope you are enjoying yourself. I've been in those waves before down in Mexico...

[osirissail]

I think there may be a difference between your definition of "system" and mine. I think of "system" as everything is in the "box" and you need only take out the parts and put them together.

D-I-Y electric propulsion to me is research the pod drives you will need. I found them in Europe. Then a diesel generator that will drive the pod motors along with banks of standard AGM batteries that will provide interim or back-up power to the motors. Then find rugged controllers, inverters, voltage changes, etc. to finalize the equipment needed. All that is a lot of time and work searching for just the right stuff for your size, shape and weight boat. This is where a lot of the money is saved. Lastly, spending hours and days thinking and designing how and where all that stuff is going to go into your boat. The actual installation is relatively quick once the "brain work" is done correctly.

Speaking of "brain-work" getting educated in all the intricacies of how electric propulsion works and what works and what doesn't work is going to take some significant time. This is where the "box" system makes it money - selling to people who are not willing to do the grunt work both brain and body.

[capn_billl]

I'm getting a Hankering of what my next job needs ot be.

[mbianka]

Osirissail and Sun Devil are pretty spot on when describing the DIY versus the Turn Key systems and the cost differences. I went with an ASMO Thoosa 9000 turn key system because I wanted a quick install and was in the mood for sailing not tinkering around below. I already spent too much time there working on the diesel. I'm glad I did. Except for cutting and redoing some of the engine stringers and building the battery platform all I really had to do is cut the battery and motor cables to length and install some terminals on the ends. All the engineering regarding the controller programming ,heat sink dissapation, layout and mounting of fuses, switches, fan and connections were already done. The gold plated Lemo and Anderson connectors were already mounted and wired up. To me the time and aggravation saved was worth it. But, the nice thing about electric propulsion you can go the DIY route if you want to save some money and want to spec and mount all the components. Never heard anyone build a diesel engine from scratch. But, you can do that with electric propulsion if you have the time and skills (mechanical and electrical) to do it.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by osirissail

I think there may be a difference between your definition of "system" and mine. I think of "system" as everything is in the "box" and you need only take out the parts and put them together.

Well my definition is kinda sorta that. I was thinking at least to find a motor and controller that are matched, "in the box" and ready to put together. The rest of the bits like batteries, voltage regulation and charging to me would be fairly simple to organize. Brackets and attaching to the boat also easily doable.

Originally Posted by osirissail

D-I-Y electric propulsion to me is research the pod drives you will need.

Have looked a lot of motors, pod drives and similar but to date I find two problems. First, the great majority of the motors out there are low power and suitable only for smaller boats. I have a 42' boat that weighs in over 10 tons loaded. Current diesel is 58 HP and I don't feel over powered with that so would not feel comfortable with a smaller electric. I'v read all the opinions and looked at the specs and done the math.

First start with 58 HP = 42.6 KW

Due to parasitic loads, better low RPM torque in electric and whose opinion you use you would get equal performance with electric with 25-50% of the power of the diesel. So take a best case scenario and assume half the power. In round numbers I would need a 21 KW electric motor.

But do I need a motor rated 20 KW continuous? Probably not and specs on several of the electric motors I've read give a really big difference between continuous and short term power rating. Since I usually use the engine the most motoring in a calm then let's assume I can get by with an electric with a continuous rating about 2/3 of the peak so final target motor powerL 14 KW continuous, 21 KW Peak. Again this seems to be the minimum that might work, depending on my semi educated calculations.

This is where my DIY breaks down. Have not seen any real world data for a system and boat this size. Would hate to spring for thousands in parts only to find out that I was grossly over or underpowered and have not found a commercial system, even overpriced, that offers that capacity.

Originally Posted by osirissail

Speaking of "brain-work" getting educated in all the intricacies of how electric propulsion works and what works and what doesn't work is going to take some significant time. This is where the "box" system makes it money - selling to people who are not willing to do the grunt work both brain and body.

I'll be happy to be a guinea pig and build a system and run extensive tests on it. Just send motor, controller, DC gen, and boltage regulator and I will test it all around.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I'll be happy to be a guinea pig and build a system and run extensive tests on it. Just send motor, controller, DC gen, and boltage regulator and I will test it all around.

Well for starters, if you aren't very familiar with using a voltmeter a DIY electric is not going to go well.

I would consider the auto packages for a couple of reasons.
1. You can buy a turnkey system.
2. There is less of the boat markup.
3. Yes the motor is not solid bronze, and has vents that will likely rust, but the motor isn't that expensive, and small enough to easily replace.
4. You know the KW's match between controller, and motor, and are enough to propel a 3000-4000lb car over land at 60MPH.

I would really like to buy a boat that has a dead inboard, and retrofit to electric.

The last time I tried it, a hurricane wiped out the boat while I was in the process of converting it. The entire thing old motor, new motor, hull was a total loss. I hope to try again soon.

[Rhapsody-NS27]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I would really like to buy a boat that has a dead inboard, and retrofit to electric.

I almost considered this myself. I had found a '79 Endeavour 32 listed for $4000 because of a dead engine. I might have bought that to play with if I wasn't living in Germany at the time. I think it would be a fun experiment and may consider down the road or wait until the engine in mine dies on me.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Well for starters, if you aren't very familiar with using a voltmeter a DIY electric is not going to go well.

BSEE, so even though my focus was digital (digital logic circuit design and IC fabrication) I'm pretty sure I can remember how to work a VOM. Actually still have an old analog oscilloscope for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I would consider the auto packages for a couple of reasons.
1. You can buy a turnkey system.
2. There is less of the boat markup.
3. Yes the motor is not solid bronze, and has vents that will likely rust, but the motor isn't that expensive, and small enough to easily replace.
4. You know the KW's match between controller, and motor, and are enough to propel a 3000-4000lb car over land at 60MPH.

Agree for all the reasons you state. For example, industrial motor for under $1000, smaller "marine grade" motor for $3000-$5000. So if the industrial motor gets a little rusty buy two more for spares and still come out ahead.

Wife drives a Prius which has plenty of power, electric or gas mode. If I recall the electric motor is rated around 65 HP and under $1000 from Toyota to replace. Have family with an older Prius with over 200,000 miles and going strong.

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I would really like to buy a boat that has a dead inboard, and retrofit to electric.

The last time I tried it, a hurricane wiped out the boat while I was in the process of converting it. The entire thing old motor, new motor, hull was a total loss. I hope to try again soon.

Cheer up. Hurricane season is coming again and you might have a few boats available with submerged motors that need replacing.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by skipmac

BSEE, so even though my focus was digital (digital logic circuit design and IC fabrication) I'm pretty sure I can remember how to work a VOM. Actually still have an old analog oscilloscope for what it's worth.

Not trying to disparage, just pointing out that unless a turnkey system professionally installed, with field support, you will need to do some electronic troubleshooting to make it work.

[Boatguy30]

I think the main point here is he was able to go electric fairly easily since he is using an outboard. If he sells the boat to some more fuel-ish he can just swap out a gas outboard.

The cat I'm building has the options of dual inboards or single or twin outboards. I initially plan to use a single outboard (gas) as I have a Yamaha 15 longshaft four stroke. I'm quite keen to attempt a full EV setup at some stage in the future. Perhaps 2 of the torquedos would do. One thing to think about is a 35' cat let's say has 800 square feet of deck space for solar array (potentially) and can be pushed along at hull speed with about 7 hp in flat water.

I think I heard something about a german guy doing a circumnavigation on about a 60' powercat using only solar and EV stuff. Not sure how he made out, but I think shows multis have the advantage in this area.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Not trying to disparage, just pointing out that unless a turnkey system professionally installed, with field support, you will need to do some electronic troubleshooting to make it work.

Not to worry. I didn't feel disparaged at all.

Just pointing out from my side that I would be prepared to do the trouble shooting.

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Not to worry. I didn't feel disparaged at all.

Just pointing out from my side that I would be prepared to do the trouble shooting.

You certainly won't have any trouble shooting with the electrical side with your experience. A digital volt meter is all you'll ever need for that. Though my turnkey system worked right out of the box from day one. Sourcing the mechanical componets may be the hardest part and figuring out the right gear ratios for your boat, motor and prop. What kind of bushings you'll need to use etc... All those parts do add to the cost and any mistakes are out of your wallet. With a good turnkey system you provide your boats data and the EP seller comes up with the properly sized components and helps with any questions and issues that may come up. Currently there's a fellow at one of the electric boat groups who bought a low priced basic component package from someone. He's on his fourth motor and the guy who sold him the parts is no longer talking to him. I kind of feel sorry for the guy he might be in over his head and would have been better with a turn key system from the start. Sometimes it pays to pay for the expertise. When I was doing my install I needed to build new stringers to mount the motor. I was not confident in my fiberglass skills so I hired a yacht refitter to redo them. IMO it was money well spent. Got me back on the water much faster.

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Not trying to disparage, just pointing out that unless a turnkey system professionally installed, with field support, you will need to do some electronic troubleshooting to make it work.

Capn' Bill

I disagree. Other than hiring someone to rebuild my engine stringers I installed my turnkey Thoosa 9000 from ASMO Marine myself and it worked the first time I turned the key and has been relatively maintenance free since 2008. If you can crimp a battery cable you can install a turn key system IMO. Though any boatyard could also do the install too if you don't want to for some additional boatyard bucks.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

I think I heard something about a german guy doing a circumnavigation on about a 60' powercat using only solar and EV stuff. Not sure how he made out, but I think shows multis have the advantage in this area.

Um well yes. I did some calculations on the amount of power needed, and the square footage of solar cells required, and the only boat that I found that had low weight, and the required deck top area was a cat.

Not that a mono couldn't be made to work with the super high efficiency cells, but you would have to spend some down time recharging from one source or another.

[cbax]

Possible ideas:
TWIN DISC - We put horsepower to work