Do I have a blown head gasket

[Sailorlady323]

Originally Posted by Teknishn

Based on the above it doesn't sound like an engine problem but rather, possibly, a leak in your heat exchanger/condenser and you are losing your cooling water over the side through said leak. The harder/slower starting may or may not be related. Just my thoughts...

I agree. Pressure test the heat exchanger.

[aliddell]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

skip-
There are two very simple old dye checks that can start you out. The first is a dye that goes into the coolant. If there are any combustion gasses being pushed into the coolant, the dye typically turns blue so there's no problem spotting bubbles, the whole thing turns color. Any real auto parts shop should carry it, if not ask a local radiator shop.
The second is to add a UV dye, basically fluorescien. Then you run the system for ten minutes, turn out all the lights, and put on the yellow googles that came with the leak test kit (same kit that is used with AV systems, just a water-based dye instead of oil based) and run a blacklight over the system. If there are any leaks or weeps, they'll light up brightly under the black light. Let it run for a while, keep checking. If nothing turns up, by all means hold a clean white (not washed in UV-enhanced "whiteners" detergents) towel or rag over the exhaust for a minute, and then look at THAT under the black light. If you see the green glow in the rag--you're blowing coolant out the exhaust and have a head gasket leak.
Usually the cheapest way to go is to buy a $50 black light kit for AC systems, has a bright light and the goggles (which are more effective than you'd think) and for another two bucks get the radiator dye to use with it.

A head gasket, fwiw, is just wrenching. Yes, you will need a torque wrench if you don't already have one. They're incredibly cheap these days. And yes, there's usually stuff in the way...intake or exhaust mainfolds, wire harnesses, STUFF. But you're basically unbolting a heavy casting, checking the block with a straightedge for warping, looking for cracks, looking for any signs the gasket might have simply blown out. If everything looks OK, then you check the head itself, and usually drop that at a machine shop if there's any question that it has warped or is not perfectly flat any more.
Clean surfaces, buy good new gasket kit, bolt it back up. Use new head bolts if the instructions call for that, some deform after one installation and must be tossed. Just careful wrenching that will consume two days (one on, one off) for most folks. And, you come back in a month to re-torque all the head bolts afterwards. That's really important.

But first do the dye checks, they're fairly quick and painless.

I used a tester from Napa that fits over the coolant filler hole and indicates whether there are combustion gases in the coolant. Mine was positive so I removed the head and took to a maciine shop for testing and warpage. Ii turned out fine. After installing with a new head gasket, I still have gasses in coolant. I am hoping it is now a cracked block but am wondering if the exhaust manifold could be the culprit? Any thoughts?

[model 10]

[QUOTE=skipmac; So where the water going? I've looked pretty closely and I don't see steam coming out from under the cap, around the hoses or anywhere else.[/QUOTE]

When you shut down the engine the cooling system is still at about 7psi. It will leak down slowly thru the gasket leak into the cylinder.
Hopefully all you have is a heat exchanger leak.

[capeharj]

You have a leak in the heat exchanger, and the water is going out the exhaust. A bad head gasket would leave water in the oil and oil in the water.

[Lizzyfish]

Most likely you do. Do your cap off test. Don't run the engine too long that way, could create other issues. Simple removal of head, remove all old gasket. While head is off examine carbon build up on pistons and head and clean. Check old gasket for obvious signs of leakage and hope you see something. When ready to install new gasket lightly file block and head smooth with a fine flat file. Install head gasket dry, no cement, put on head and torque bolts in proper sequence to proper torque. First tightening at 50% torque, then 75% torque then last run at 100% torque. Readjust valve lash and complete assembly then start and look for leaks! Good luck, fairly simple job to do in 6 hours or less.

[BobMc]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I think I do. Engine is a Westerkeke W58 which is a Perkins 4.154 with red paint. Recently it started losing water from the fresh water system and I don't see any obvious leaks.

I topped off the header tank, ran it at the dock for 10-15 minutes and had to add a pint. Same thing a couple of times looking for the leak. Yesterday ran it about 20-25 minutes and had to add over a quart.

Had a similar issue on Sanderling with a leak I couldn't find, but not a severe as what you're describing. Was sure we had a blown head gasket. Turned out to be a leak in the temperature control valve of the hot water heater which was heated through the engine coolant system. The coolant was being dumped into the sump and pumped overboard (too small an amount to notice in the sump). Replaced the TCV and everything was back to normal.

Others have given similar suggestions - a pin hole leak may be difficult to see with the engine running. Also, check your bilge/sump for any trace of anti-freeze solution. If it is a head gasket, there won't be any trace in the bilge/sump.

[Woodland Hills]

If you have a coolant recovery bottle and a cracked head or bad gasket lets exhaust gasses over-pressurize the system, won’t it pump the contents of the bottle into the bilge?

[skipmac]

Again thanks to all for the info and suggestions.

Latest update, I pulled the heat exchanger and it's fine. Visual inspection no corrosion or holes to be seen, DIY pressure test passed, filled the fresh water side with water and let it sit for two days and not a drop leaked out.

So best guess, based on all comment, wasn't it.

Summary of the status so far.

- Heat exchanger checked very closely, appears good.
- No obvious or visible leaks anywhere in the system. Considering the amount of water I'm losing I'm pretty sure it would be easily visible.
- Crankcase oil is crystal clear so water is not ending up there.
- Based on my logic and comments here, IE pressure in the combustion chamber is 100 times higher than the pressure in the fresh water cooling it is very unlikely the water is going into the combustion chamber.
- Fresh water header tank. The exhaust cast iron elbows leave the side of the block and bolt to the bottom of the header tank, collect into a common pipe the exit the back of the header tank to the mixing elbow. This seemed like another possible source of the problem but I pulled the header tank off an old W58 I purchase for parts and the fresh water tank is a solid casting and the exhaust pipe is in a channel along the bottom and does not penetrate into the tank so very unlikely this is the problem.

If the head gasket is compromised I can only think of three things that are theoretically possible.

1. Water going into the combustion chamber. Unlikely
2. Water going into the oil. Don't see it.
3. Water leaking out the side of the block. Don't see it.

Going back to the boat today to reinstall the heat exchanger and try more testing.

1. Even though I seem to be losing a pint or more in 15 minutes run which I think would be visible the next step will involve a UV leak inspection.
2. Retrace the entire cooling system to confirm any other place the water could go that wouldn't be easily visible.
3. Check the header tank to confirm my theory that it is not the source of the problem.
4. Do a pressure test on the system. I can borrow a radiator pressure/leak detector that installs where the radiator/pressure cap fits but wondering what I could learn with it. I already know I'm losing water, I need to know where. If there is a leak in the head gasket if I turn over the engine with the tester connected would I see pulsating reading? Someone suggested that a slow build up to pressure then stable would indicate a leak in the head gasket to a cylinder that would stabilize as the pressure built up but would that not depend on the position of the intake and exhaust valves?

What next?

[Woodland Hills]

Have you considered a cracked head that only opens up when the engine is hot? Pressure testing a cold engine wouldn’t find this..... have you checked coolant pressure while the engine is running? A bad gasket, warped head or cracked head can over pressurize the cooling system.

Unless you applied pressure to the HE, you didn’t really test it. How long will it hold 50 to 75 psi? Will it hold it’s working pressure at operating temperature?

[Le Freak]

Another more simple solution is replacing the radiator or cooling water cap Pressure spring tends to fail in Perkins

[bushaxt]

Does the engine misfire on cold start up? If it does coolant could be seeping into the cylinder during cool down. A simple and cheap way to check would be to start with a cold engine, slightly low of coolant, remove cap, and stretch a latex glove over the opening, and secure it with rubber bands. start the engine, and let it warm up some. ( enough to open up a crack if you think that is a possibility ) If the glove inflates you have compression getting into the cooling system. It will puff up a little from expansion if there is not a failure, but not much. If the glove doesn't inflate I'd look at exhaust riser, if your'e sure the exchanger is ok . Do you have a hot water heater that uses the engine coolant to preheat water ?

[skipmac]

Thanks again, A few more details.

- No have not pressure tested the system hot but that's on the list. The possibility of head or gasket problems that only appear then is something I've considered but trying the easy answers first.

- There is currently no hot water heater plumbed into the loop.

- Engine has been slightly harder to start. Previously it would fire immediately, like in a 1/4-1/2 a revolution. Now it spins over a couple of times before it cranks and I see a small puff of white from the exhaust. Since it immediately dissipates I think it's steam which may indicate water in the cylinders although I guess there could be a bit in the intake that gets sucked in.

- Did not pressure test the heat exchanger to 50-70 psi. Any quick and dirty DIY way to do this?

[sailah]

I think a pressure test of cooling system and combustion gas analysis test would be what I would do first.

You could put some UV leak dye in the coolant and pressure test after you ran it to mix everything up.

I have all these kits and aren't using them if you want to pay postage here and back I'll send them to you.

[merrydolphin]

I had a very similar problem and it was the heat exchanger. Fresh water leaking into the salt and out the exhaust. You can buy after market heat exchanger fairly cheaply. I did and still working well after 3 yrs. also make sure your header tank cap is not leaking at all. Even a little is bad. Thought I had blown a head gasket once on the way to St Martin. An honest mechanic there simply replaced the cap and no more problem.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by sailah

I think a pressure test of cooling system and combustion gas analysis test would be what I would do first.

You could put some UV leak dye in the coolant and pressure test after you ran it to mix everything up.

I have all these kits and aren't using them if you want to pay postage here and back I'll send them to you.

Thank you. That's a very generous offer but unfortunately I already picked up a kit. Also got a free loaner pressure testing kit from the local Autozone.

Besides, I really, really want this figured out this weekend. I want to solve this now and get my boat headed north for the summer.