Originally Posted by Q Xopa
Yes, very nice stuff Pfeifer Industries do.
Do you know if they have disconnect clutches? I could see mention of clutch
flanges but no other info.
Yes their drive hubs look nice too. My only comments about them is that they are aluminium. Maybe corrodes too easily? Maybe they can do other materials? Also the better looking ones still use a Woodruff key so would still need the slot milled into your shaft, so still would be easier done hauled out. Almost anything is possible though.
Also most of the motors referenced are DC brushed types. I think the EP industry has largely moved onto Brushless AC motors.
I heard the Parallel hybrid road is getting well trod. I'm not sure I would go that far. Parallel seems to be rarely considered and not well known about. That's fine by me.
The Series Hybrid EP crowd seems to be the popular flavor of the month at the moment judging by the threads and participation. It's great to see some tinkering and discussion about EP in general. Although IMNSHO it's still a little way off being viable and practical, but its headed in the right direction.
I see Parallel systems as like Series systems still not very viable and practical either.
However if it is considered more as a Triskel/ Intergrel generator replacement style concept
it IMNSHO gets more interesting. Then the EP aspects become of a 'bonus' rather than of questionable viability.
Yes, Pfeifer Ind is in my library for some time. All started out with the alternator gurus trying to sell me on a 6 - 10 grove pully system for 5-700 $ and what I need is design freedom to adapt to higher loads for a reasonable price
* Yes the aluminium is an issue. That comes from the EV world where everything is designed to save weight. However if You understood how they built the pulleys then itīs a minor problem. If You can mill the teeth in a round bar of forged alu, then You can also do it in any round bar if You have the right cutting tools. No, I never felt the urge to talk to them to challenge their tech capabilities. I donīt know if they machine the round bars themselfs or if they subcontract. However at this stage of thoughts it would not surprise me if they already also have some advanced nonmetal solutions in in the black box.
* Well, the Haul Out
topic. Actually I was more thinking about trying to use the already existing coupling between drive and prop shaft by squeezing just a disk in between to keep it DIY
$$$$ simple. Of course if the boat is on the hard
that takes out a lot of heat. But now imagine it would take just "ONE COMPONENT" that could be easy fit to any standard coupling and NO need of further complications ? Then the only issue would be designing a proper frame for the motor/generator. Any $$$ DECENT machine shop $$$ can screw and weld some plates and bars/angle irons to spec.
Now the headline was DIY
Of course the mentioned ideas are no subject for the DROP IN warranty defenders but I would say for a person with fair skills that many live aboards have aquiered by needs with time and that have the balls to think a little out of the box this is pure logic. However I would recommend to take the EXPERTS!!! like a company caliper Pfeifer on board to secure the critical technical details. I guess when You digest their web page You gotta realize that their are quiete a few things to consider and itīs not just hammering and screwing ..... guess itīs clear what I mean, RIGHT ?
Of course I am sure their are more companies like that. Right now I am just busy with other things and have no time for digging.
* DISCONNECT CLUTCHES.... well, also not on my priority list right now but I estimate that also as a minor issue. If You understand there are electric actuated clutches then their is a solution. I personally prefer the magnetic coupling like used in the automotive ind. on AC compressors with one reservation. I donīt think itīs good for the longevity of the components that for example in the case of the diesel engine warming up with out load all over sudden a high load like a 10 kW generator kicks in. Not that this is only a high stress on the drive system. It would also need some serious beefing up on the frame for the drive and that is more weight and $$$$. So that would requiere some kind of a controlled slip ring etc. solution. (Clutch Controller)
No I have never talked to them but I am convinced that when I call an expert in the tech department of a company like https://www.warnerelectric.com/products/clutch-products
I will have the right solution with all options in less then 20 minutes. Of course always if I can keep up with the guyīs expert language to be on the same page. After all those guys are wizzards because they have lived in the world of clutch
science all their live. They know all the bells and
Hahaha, now I hope You are a nice guy and will not try to be a smart ass. Then I am sure such a wizzard is motivated to show You all his expert talents and he will take You to the promised land, ...... Hahaha,Right ?
Of course if You go to the marine
mafia they only wanna talk about black $$$ boxes and sell You complete systems.
*Also most of the motors referenced are DC brushed types. I think the EP industry has largely moved on to Brushless AC motors.
Well, this is a real topic for me and I am trying to keep a clear head
. First of all with an EV You have more options. Soon there will be a plug
everywhere and the guys eager to sell us the juice. For them itīs cheaper to transport high volts and for us itīs faster to charge. Yes I agree there are some performance debates towards AC motors but for me on a boat navigating large distances with out a way to plug
in things change dramatically. Of course making big waves close to the beach for a few hours or getting out of the harbor is not the same then the situation of NO wind
or trying to escape from a frightening weather
So what I need is a constant EP that is close to hull speed
and not the BS that my batteries will last all day long at 2 knots
So first I start my system with the batteries and how I charge them. Next step is Free renewable energy. This tech all happens in DC and what I canīt get for free I have to supply with a dirty fossil fuel
Diesel gen that is still the most efficient form of energy.
And I donīt believe that will change any time soon !!!
Parting from available space and options of renewable capacity I think itīs fair to state that this might be enough for comfortable permanent on board living but itīs definitely not enough for extended motoring at "close to hull speed" with out a Diesel gen.
Now there is always a loss when You convert from DC to AC, specially shading when trying higher voltage with solar panels
connected in series. On the charging side You always have the control issues of frequency when choosing an AC gen while I can totally avoid all those issues when I have a large battery bank that I wanna have anyway to take full advantage of all the renewable options. Yes, comercial marine
runs high voltage AC but they also donīt try to take advantage of renewables. With the tech of today till now I come to the conclusion that for the recreative marine ind. running all DC on the charging side is more practical, less sensitive to marine environment
components and cheaper as an over all integration with the DC standard installations on the boat. Remains the integration of the propulsion
that gets more complicated. As there are trade
offs a 48 Volt DC motor for propulsion out performs from the point of "MY"view of intigration, simplicity, safety
and $$$ specially DIY. For insurance
purposes You also need a certified $$$$ installation if You go standard AC voltage and those guys might not be around when something goes wrong. Remains the issues of integrating the DC 48 Volt propulsion with a standard 12 Volt installation. Well, on the DC motor side there is not much to control. In theory You can run down the battery till the recommended DOD. On the other side You need stable 12 Volt to run sensitive electronics
and the inverter
will cut of between 10 - 11 Volts. Best ideas I have on the subject till now is step down transformers, maybe several of them for different circuits.... or just a second bank of batteries with a charger
Well of course... and the DC gen always on automatic to keep the batteries in a good mood. Today there are Lithium
batteries that garanty 10.000 cycles in heavy fast charge and discharge EV application. I thing itīs fair to think that in our boats we will not even be able to tickle them with our loads.
10.000 heavy cycles = 3 cycles per day for 27 years. Yeah, things are getting interesting.
* I heard the Parallel hybrid road is getting well trod. I'm not sure I would go that far. Parallel seems to be rarely considered and not well known about. That's fine by me.
Well, here I definitely disagree.
The Parallel hybrid drive is a game
First of all on the SAFETY
side. Now boats with a single
engine have a BACK UP propulsion if the engine fails. The renewables might not be up for constant hull speed
but they are always good to capture some emergency
Amps for the electric motor.
* I absolutely agree with the DIY head
line and purpose of this thread. Makes NO SENSE to throw out my perfectly well engine that I know all the querks, have all the spare parts
and tools just because the marine mafia doesnīt find it convenient or profitable to give us a $$$ decent solution $$$
* Boats designed with Diesel propulsion need a reliable charging source with capacity to get more comfort on board.
* Most of the time itīs a hassle to find a good location for a gen on board
* Efficiency...not all have a money
printing machine on board and for others it might be just a pure question of operating costs.
I believe the Parallel Hybrid is a very good option unless You buy a new boat
* The Series Hybrid EP crowd seems to be the popular flavor of the month at the moment judging by the threads and participation
Hahaha, trends in the news
* However if it is considered more as a Triskel/ Intergrel generator replacement style concept it IMNSHO gets more interesting. Then the EP aspects become of a 'bonus' rather than of questionable viability.
I believe DIY is great and a lot cheaper but always if You have the skills to know what You are doing and having the quality suppliers for the components is key for design freedom.
* But I agree that things could be so much simpler without needing to mess around with pesky pullies and drive belts or chains.
* Parallel can have one of the input elements stop and the system will continue to function. So maybe this is worth messing around with belts and pullies. This is an individual choice.
Here You go. Yes on a single
engine itīs worth while
>>>> Ie engine stopping from bad fuel
etc. It might make enough of a difference to my ass..ets? I'd rather have it up my sleeve than not. I'm all for redundancy and being a mono this is more relevant than Cat owners.
Sorry, of course You did not forget. My fault keeping up with the pace.
The other benefit of a Parallel Hybrid installation that it is a bloody big high output alternator installation but potentially without lots of the issues associated with trying to do bigger alternator installs. Ie overheating
and Belt drive systems are already built robust enough etc.
Yes, serious Amps with more or less off the shelf components... only a question of digging and getting the right mix
* Electric Outboard
Well, till now I see almost only converted gasoline outboards no matter whatīs the name of the brand. What a waste of efficiency with all the gears and $$$$ with the El CHEAPO solutions
Then there is the Torqueedo like mafia pushing to hook You up with the integrated controllers and systems and fancy black box design for the price
of gold.....and ŋ?ŋ "geard" brushless DC motors ??? Mmmmmm
And then there are the real POD drives like Fischer Panda
, also DC..... unfortunately also way out of range for many to justify the investment.
What I like about the outboard
and pod drive idea is the fact that the thrust is directed most efficient and not in an angle like a shaft drive that some times is more then 10š angle due to design issues with the size of the combustion engine. They are very robust in case of the Pod drive and very service
friendly in case of the outboard.
* One quick question if I may, how are you suggesting to power the Electric outboards- big battery bank or separate generator? If big batteries, what was your thoughts on charging them back up?
Batteries, and especially getting them charged is where things usually seem to start getting a bit more complicated.
Hahaha Yeah, Well, Mmmm, You gotta start some where, Right ?
Thatīs why I start the design of my system with the battery bank and the charging sources.
Itīs not like money))) You canīt spend more energy then You produce
The generator can be used to top up the batteries but not as effectively as with the 220 option.
And what is the situation if there is no 220 option ?
Efficiency is relative and most likely a question of trade
offs. The comparison with comercial marine industrie is not valid.... not only because of the uses related with the renewables. When You change size You also change parameters.
For example: on a big freighter size and weight is no design issue. You also have industrial quality permanent maintenance
With a DC gen You have variable RPM
speed control to use the gen capacity. That is more fuel efficient. Less fuel = less space for tanks
or greater operating range.
Always open to new ideas