Diesel Odor - A health hazard?

[thinwater]

Wave the bloody shirt!

The thing about toxicology is that so often it is not the things we suspect and is things we don't. Seems like diesel has been well studied.

(My grandfather was a diesel mechanic/machinist and died prematurely at 96.)

[Rustic Charm]

Those of you that quote knowing someone who died of old age who worked on diesels, who quote very old studies, are the same arguments people use for the tobacco industry and even what was said for thirty years about asbestos. Diesel fumes are a well known and accepted carcinogen as defined by the international agency for research on cancer. FACT! There is no acceptable reason why their should be diesel fumes in a boat. Spend the time and find it.

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

Those of you that quote knowing someone who died of old age who worked on diesels, who quote very old studies, are the same arguments people use for the tobacco industry and even what was said for thirty years about asbestos. Diesel fumes are a well known and accepted carcinogen as defined by the international agency for research on cancer. FACT! There is no acceptable reason why their should be diesel fumes in a boat. Spend the time and find it.

I have a real hard time with people who use the word FACT or ABSOLUTES to deal with probabilities or a hypothesis.

FACT - Drinking water kills people. Yes, people die from drinking too much water. Key. Excessive use of. But you don't see a State of California warning label on your spigot - YET.

If you have ever worked in research, you would know that someone came up with a hypothesis they wanted to further prove (already biased), then they are funded by someone who also wants the results in favor of the hypothesis.

What you end up with are things that the late great Richard Feynmann always warned about and explained in simplistic terms in Cargo Cult Science. And ironically died of two very rare forms of Cancer that were probably a result of his work on the "bomb."

So, yes. The State of California and other governmental funded agencies are really big on warning us about things they can control, regulate, tax and fine. They are really bad about warning us about the even worse things they are responsible for like MTBE or the radiation in the water now off the coast of California.

Reality. Large doses of anything will kill you. Individual acute sensitivities, allergies, etc. change the math as dealing with unknown probabilities.

Smoking does not cause cancer. Smoking large quantities over a long period of time increases the probability that the effects of the known carcinogens will have on the human body. But we now have warning labels that state "Smoking Causes Cancer," instead of the reality we had before that it "May"

Fuels like Diesel and Kerosene, much like cleaning products like Pine and Bleach are bad for us IF we inhale too much. But at the point they are bad for us is where the body is already telling us the smell is intolerable.

Human beings are not created equal and have different tolerances to different substances and normally attributed to individual deficiencies - or said as succinctly as possible: The man who drinks three 6 packs a night may end up with Liver Disease much faster than the guy who drinks a couple of beers a week, but both work with the same chemicals at a plant. The liver disease was greatly attributed to the alcohol consumption but the litigious family was able to file suit, and win, against the plant, even though the plant was only proximate to the cause.

If your boat has a lot of wood in it and you have had a broken hose or spilled filter, etc. You will know that after that fuel sloshed around in the bilges and wicked into any porous surface, it will be there for years to come adding that salty flavor to your cabin.

I don't disagree with your point that if you have a leak, fix it. But I can tell you from real world experience that the effects of a leak are long lasting if you have a lot of wood and there is not a whole lot you can do about it other than a lot of what was already suggested.

I can also tell you from experience that things like a dribble from a injector seal when it is really cold outside because of a manufacture design defect are hard to fix, or the mechanic who changed your filters and dumped a pint in the bilge in the process. As stated by someone prior, it creates an annoyance, but less of a health hazard than say - motoring with following winds blowing all the exhaust back into the boat. Or about a million other things that increased the probabilities that day that my life would end.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by tdoster

I have a real hard time with people who use the word FACT or ABSOLUTES to deal with probabilities or a hypothesis.

FACT - Drinking water kills people. Yes, people die from drinking too much water. Key. Excessive use of. But you don't see a State of California warning label on your spigot - YET.

If you have ever worked in research, you would know that someone came up with a hypothesis they wanted to further prove (already biased), then they are funded by someone who also wants the results in favor of the hypothesis.

What you end up with are things that the late great Richard Feynmann always warned about and explained in simplistic terms in Cargo Cult Science. And ironically died of two very rare forms of Cancer that were probably a result of his work on the "bomb."

So, yes. The State of California and other governmental funded agencies are really big on warning us about things they can control, regulate, tax and fine. They are really bad about warning us about the even worse things they are responsible for like MTBE or the radiation in the water now off the coast of California.

Reality. Large doses of anything will kill you. Individual acute sensitivities, allergies, etc. change the math as dealing with unknown probabilities.

Smoking does not cause cancer. Smoking large quantities over a long period of time increases the probability that the effects of the known carcinogens will have on the human body. But we now have warning labels that state "Smoking Causes Cancer," instead of the reality we had before that it "May"

Fuels like Diesel and Kerosene, much like cleaning products like Pine and Bleach are bad for us IF we inhale too much. But at the point they are bad for us is where the body is already telling us the smell is intolerable.

Human beings are not created equal and have different tolerances to different substances and normally attributed to individual deficiencies - or said as succinctly as possible: The man who drinks three 6 packs a night may end up with Liver Disease much faster than the guy who drinks a couple of beers a week, but both work with the same chemicals at a plant. The liver disease was greatly attributed to the alcohol consumption but the litigious family was able to file suit, and win, against the plant, even though the plant was only proximate to the cause.

If your boat has a lot of wood in it and you have had a broken hose or spilled filter, etc. You will know that after that fuel sloshed around in the bilges and wicked into any porous surface, it will be there for years to come adding that salty flavor to your cabin.

I don't disagree with your point that if you have a leak, fix it. But I can tell you from real world experience that the effects of a leak are long lasting if you have a lot of wood and there is not a whole lot you can do about it other than a lot of what was already suggested.

I can also tell you from experience that things like a dribble from a injector seal when it is really cold outside because of a manufacture design defect are hard to fix, or the mechanic who changed your filters and dumped a pint in the bilge in the process. As stated by someone prior, it creates an annoyance, but less of a health hazard than say - motoring with following winds blowing all the exhaust back into the boat. Or about a million other things that increased the probabilities that day that my life would end.

Wally, this is a cruising forum not a forum for the spouting of your conspiracy theory's, let alone ignorant beliefs about smoking. The point is having a diesel smell in your boat is not necessary, find it and fix it.

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

Wally, this is a cruising forum not a forum for the spouting of your conspiracy theory's, let alone ignorant beliefs about smoking. The point is having a diesel smell in your boat is not necessary, find it and fix it.

I will pardon your ignorance on the difference between conspiracy theory and science. You failed to do as you told the rest of us and go out and read. If you had done so, you would know what I am talking about regarding Cargo Cult Science and how we have failed to recreate the baseline and accept what we are told instead of doing the work to form our own hypothesis that is not funded for a specific outcome. Yes, it is a cruising forum. And you stated a FACT that is not necessarily a fact and I used logic and reasoning to argue your point.

Attacking someone as you just did shows what really is "stupid" about society as instead of having nice and polite discourse you have to go to calling me names.

I will accept and expect an apology for the Wally comment.

[Rustic Charm]

Alright, sorry for the 'wally' name calling. It's actually considered an old term of endearment where I come from, similar to 'mate'.

[tdoster]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

Alright, sorry for the 'wally' name calling. It's actually considered an old term of endearment where I come from, similar to 'mate'.

Well the Brits mucked that all up and I would rather be called a "septic" from my friends down under than Wally. I can't argue with septic or really be offended for that matter.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

Those of you that quote knowing someone who died of old age who worked on diesels, who quote very old studies, are the same arguments people use for the tobacco industry and even what was said for thirty years about asbestos. Diesel fumes are a well known and accepted carcinogen as defined by the international agency for research on cancer. FACT! There is no acceptable reason why their should be diesel fumes in a boat. Spend the time and find it.

While I agree leaks should be found...sometimes links should be read...

link from Goboatingnow's post #29

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFil.../1194947407341

Health effects of chronic exposure

•

Prolonged skin exposure to diesel may cause a variety of dermatitic conditions and is

generally a result of inadequate or inappropriate use of personal protective equipment

•

Diesel does not have a measurable effect on human reproduction or development

•

There is currently no unequivocal evidence to link diesel with the incidence of cancer in

humans but there is limited evidence for carcinogenicity in animals following prolonged

exposure

Prepared

[Richard5]

Just read the MSDS. Learn what constitutes acute and chronic and repeated exposures, what is liquid, burned exhaust, unburned vapors, etc. It is not difficult.

[gamayun]

If you don't find any leak, check the soles and anywhere there is wood close to the engine. I had a leak that got into sole board in the aft berth. Put cat litter on it, which helped to soak up some of the diesel, then washed it in Dawn dish liquid and hot water. It's much better, but the smell is still not completely gone. Despite the back and forth about the science, breathing PAHs is not good for you, but the degree of "bad" depends on duration and amount of exposure.