Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-05-2022, 10:51   #1
Registered User
 
Michigan_Eric's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Michigan or Arizona, depending on the season
Boat: Tartan 31
Posts: 25
Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Does anyone manufacture a Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive?

Does this seem like a good idea? I'm sure it would be an expensive power option, but it would have a lot of advantages that I probably don't have to elaborate on here, but here are a few anyway:
  • Use the electric to go in and out of the harbor
  • Engage the prop to charge batteries while you sail
  • Use the Diesel by itself for distance motoring while charging the batteries
  • Use the Diesel and electric together when you need extra oompf (like when motoring against a strong current (I'm thinking in particular upstream under the Blue Water bridge at the mouth of the St. Clair River, Great Lakes)
  • Have a large bank of Li-ion batteries, that can serve both to power the saildrive and as house batteries... probably best to have at least two switchable banks
Any thoughts?

Offhand, the complexity would be a disadvantage, but if built by a reputable manufacturer, and maybe not in its first generation, the reliability would be good.
Michigan_Eric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 11:39   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 7,310
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

You are unlikely to obtain additional "oomph" because it is the propeller that will typically be the torque / propulsion limiter, not the properly power sized [no pun intended] drive mechanisms.

You will have considerable extra expense, weight [displacement and all the adversities of said added displacement], interior hull space consuming objects and complexity with more points of failure.

The electric drive will inherently have short distance of travel capacity so why
bother with such when you have a perfectly good engine on board. You only need one iron jib.

You can obtain electrical charging power from using solar panels [or a wind turbine powered generator] and thus avoid the drag and slowing of a propeller and its inefficiencies when operating as a turbine while operating under sail power.

You have a sail boat, sail it, or sale it.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 11:43   #3
Registered User
 
Michigan_Eric's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Michigan or Arizona, depending on the season
Boat: Tartan 31
Posts: 25
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Just to be clear, this would allow both the electric motor and the diesel engine to power the sail drive through the transmission. The Diesel would of course have an alternator to charge the batteries, which I suppose could also indirectly power the electric motor.

So the Diesel could have a lower horsepower than the boat would require for a Diesel alone, and could serve as a genset. And the electric motor could be sized to adequately power the boat in most situations, with the Diesel providing extra power when necessary.

My biggest concern would be the complexity of the transmission, which would have to allow for power from the Diesel or the electric motor or both, while also allowing the motor, working as a generator, to recharge the batteries while sailing.
Michigan_Eric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 12:01   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 390
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

The diesel electric hybrid setups that I've read about don't work quite that way. The diesel generator just charges the batteries when needed. Motoring is always via the electric motor.

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia...?source=google

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/hunt...wered-by-elco/

They claim to be much more efficient.
leecea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 12:13   #5
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,757
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea View Post
The diesel electric hybrid setups that I've read about don't work quite that way. The diesel generator just charges the batteries when needed. Motoring is always via the electric motor.

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia...?source=google

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/hunt...wered-by-elco/

They claim to be much more efficient.
Diesel - electric doesn’t run through batteries per se. When the generator is running and the electric drive is active, the charge current from the generator/charger goes straight to the electric motor. If the generator has excess capacity, part of the current goes into charging the batteries.

This skips the charge-discharge cycle, greatly enhancing efficiency.
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 12:14   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 7,310
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

You will need to determine where and how your motor / generator is coupled and thus its proper speed / torque rating and the unique power electronics required to service such in propulsion and power generating modes.

For example, is the motor / genny to be placed between the engine and the transmission or behind the transmission.

One will need to give careful consideration as to the capacity of the SailDrive's clutch mechanism and as to the transmission.

Will the SailDrive's propeller ratings be changed from the original specifications so as to be useful for the altered drive scheme.

You will need to have complex coupling / decoupling mechanisms with selective operating capabilities.

Lots of considerations.

The company I have cofounded, designs, develops and manufactures EV propulsion systems, primarily for heavy vehicles, such as eBuses, and trucks.
I do not advocate electric drive systems for recreational sail boating.

For motor drives and generators, high voltage being highly preferred over low voltage / high current, albeit that does invoke high voltage danger to consider. Not something I would install for your everyday sailor and crew to contend with.
Montanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 12:57   #7
Registered User
 
grantmc's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: home town Wellington, NZ and Savusavu Fiji
Boat: Reinke S10 & Raven 26
Posts: 1,228
Send a message via Skype™ to grantmc
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

I think hybrid diesel/electric engines will be a very serious option in a handful of years, much as 10 years ago the option of a hybrid car seemed rather stupid, today they're proving themselves to have a number of benefits:
  1. Hybrid engines improve MPG ratings.
  2. They are far more environmentally friendly.
  3. They have optional power settings for stronger performance.
  4. Typically, owners of hybrid vehicles save very serious coin on fuel.

Oh and there's one more important factor, you overcome the range restrictions of all electric engines.

But yachts have a couple of important advantages;
  • we often already typically have a vast array of solar, (we have the roof space for solar), and
  • the turning prop whilst sailing can generate electricity.

And obviously there are negatives. And compared to a hybrid car or truck, there are no gains from gravity, nor from slowing down when the forward momentum can gain extra electric charge from moving wheels etc. Boats tend to run at a constant speed.

Even a decade ago who'd have guessed that hybrid vehicles would be winners? It seemed counter intuitive, (extra complexity, weight and servicing, battery technology). But they've proved their market appeal all over the world.

The decision to repower a yacht is a serious business, and currently we've no choice to go hybrid without much complexity. But if there was a package (matched diesel and electric engines, batteries, charger etc) available I suspect it would be a game changer. Especially the case for yacht manufacturers.

Fossil fuels are not going to be attractive to our children's children. Diesel will go the way of two stroke engines in that they'll slowly and surely be phased out. I don't know if the winner will be the hybrid diesel/electric, but I've no doubt that in 50 years boats wont be being built with pure diesel powered engines.

Just as an aside, and this is a very serious question asked by the OP, and not about me per se. But 10 years ago I repowered my yacht, replacing an old Yanmar YSE8 with a new 14hp diesel. If I were to make that change today I would repower with an all electric. The reality for me and I think for the majority of yachts is that the engines are only used for 10-15 minutes to drive in and out of the marina. So in the same way that commuters are changing to electric vehicles and accepting the reduced mileage range, if most of one's travel is to/from work then the savings in not buying petrol or diesel offer significant advantages.
__________________
Grant Mc
The cure for everything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea. Yeah right, I wish.
grantmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 13:14   #8
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,398
Images: 22
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Hybrid marine produce a system based on Beta or Yanmar engines. Sadly not cheap:

https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 14:01   #9
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,441
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Betamarine does a hybrid system, shaft drive for sure, don’t know about sail drive.

Their system is a parallel hybrid which has significant efficiency advantages.

If I was re-engining a boat I would use this system with the diesel prime mover sized to just barely make hull speed in calm weather. In heavily weather electric drive can be added to that for a period depending on battery bank size.

I would us a controllable pitch propellor which offers an additional efficiency advantage at anything less than full power. Also it offers less drag while sailing and much better regen.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2022, 14:14   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 589
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmc View Post
...
  1. Hybrid engines improve MPG ratings.
  2. They are far more environmentally friendly.
  3. They have optional power settings for stronger performance.
  4. Typically, owners of hybrid vehicles save very serious coin on fuel.
...
All of these benefits of hybrid drives in cars are the result of varying speeds, starts/stops, acceleration/deceleration. None of them apply even to hybrid cars when driving at highway speeds, where it is strictly the ICE that powers the vehicle. Cruising sailboats, IME, are much more akin to driving at highway speeds. A steady, relatively high output that is not subject to the starts and stops of city driving. In that scenario any gear you add between the diesel and the propeller can only reduce efficiency.

For daysailors the model of the plug-in hybrid might be viable, allowing you to solely use electric to get on and off the dock, while maintaining diesel capabilities for longer travel. But, for the use most daysailing boats get the green aspects are probably more than eaten up by the extra embodied energy of the batteries, motor, transmission(s) and other gear.

For me, the all electric model and accepting that you sail more and motor less, or the straight auxiliary ICE installation make more sense than a hybrid. My 2¢
HeywoodJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2022, 00:56   #11
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,757
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Does anybody know how these do: https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products...k/1283-00.html
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2022, 02:00   #12
Registered User

Join Date: May 2016
Location: Denmark
Boat: Nordship 808
Posts: 266
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Where I live, there are quite a few of them installed (I see this in an EP facebook group where people post about their projects.)
I haven't seen anyone not happy with them.
My personal problem with these pods are that the motor is submerged, and if anything go wrong you cant work on it, unless you get the boat of the water.
And for the Torqeedo systems, they require that you change an o-ring every year (or every other year) i.e. that you have to haul, be able to get a hold of the o-ring AND get hold of someone who knows how to do it.

I was close to buying a similar pod system, but is still on the fence due to this.

It's not a hybrid btw. just an all electric drive
SaylorMade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2022, 12:07   #13
always in motion is the future
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,757
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaylorMade View Post
Where I live, there are quite a few of them installed (I see this in an EP facebook group where people post about their projects.)
I haven't seen anyone not happy with them.
My personal problem with these pods are that the motor is submerged, and if anything go wrong you cant work on it, unless you get the boat of the water.
And for the Torqeedo systems, they require that you change an o-ring every year (or every other year) i.e. that you have to haul, be able to get a hold of the o-ring AND get hold of someone who knows how to do it.

I was close to buying a similar pod system, but is still on the fence due to this.

It's not a hybrid btw. just an all electric drive
You mean the pods that I linked to have an O-ring that requires yearly change? I never heard of that… is it on a moving part?
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.

s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2022, 12:15   #14
Registered User

Join Date: May 2016
Location: Denmark
Boat: Nordship 808
Posts: 266
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You mean the pods that I linked to have an O-ring that requires yearly change? I never heard of that… is it on a moving part?
That is what one of the danish dealers told me when he quoted a system to me. It is part of the seal that keeps the water out of the engine house/pod.
It was one of the smaller models though, so don't know if that makes a difference.
SaylorMade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2022, 13:09   #15
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,398
Images: 22
Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Betamarine does a hybrid system, shaft drive for sure, don’t know about sail drive.
There was one saildrive for electric motors sold by Sillette Sonic in the UK. Sadly they stopped selling it. Perhaps too far ahead of their time. Uses a Lynch pancake motor also made in the UK.

https://www.sillette.co.uk/products/...pulsion-system

That said, Sillette may not have made but bought in the drive and someone else still makes it.

Pete
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diesel, electric, sail, saildrive

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Any Merit in Subdividing the Engine Subforum into Diesel / Gas and Electric / Hybrid? David_Old_Jersey Engines and Propulsion Systems 8 17-02-2020 06:41
Conversion of Saildrive to hybrid diesel electric mstrebe Monohull Sailboats 1 30-03-2015 01:05
Is Anybody Using a Hybrid Electric Diesel ? deckofficer Engines and Propulsion Systems 11 30-03-2013 02:08
diesel/electric hybrid sailorboy1 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 91 18-06-2008 18:03

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.