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Old 13-06-2022, 11:23   #31
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

I don't have a sail drive but I do have a Diesel Electric Hybrid on an all electric sailboat. Instead of a marine diesel running an alternator though I chose a marine Diesel generator, kept the diesel tank, got rid of the Yanmar (which paid for the electric drive except batteries). It all fits in the same engine compartment as the original Yanmar (except the batteries of course) and uses the engine control at the helm pod to control the motor. Not complicated and much much more efficient. I can charge drive and house batteries with shore power or generator (and soon solar). I can run AC, refrigeration, induction stove microwave and lights off house batteries. so much more flexible than it was before. And once the boat sails to hull speed I can recharge drive batteries using regen.

This is all available on a DIY basis from reputable suppliers--not at all 1st gen tech.
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Old 13-06-2022, 11:33   #32
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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Originally Posted by Michigan_Eric View Post
Does anyone manufacture a Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive?

Does this seem like a good idea? I'm sure it would be an expensive power option, but it would have a lot of advantages that I probably don't have to elaborate on here, but here are a few anyway:
[...]
Any thoughts?

Offhand, the complexity would be a disadvantage, but if built by a reputable manufacturer, and maybe not in its first generation, the reliability would be good.
My view is that a diesel-electric drive needs to offer some advantages to the current alternatives to become viable. Road vehicles, especially in city traffic have a very different power usage profile than boats. I see the following options:

- Planing boats will always be gas or diesel, there is no viable alternative

- Displacement boats, trawlers for example, can benefit from complexity reduction. For example, a Nordhavn has one main engine, one wing engine, a couple of generators, tons of batteries, ballast, multiple alternators, etc. All of this can be replaced by two generators (for backup) feeding a properly sized electric motor/propeller combo. You can use batteries instead of ballast. That could work and if you match the motor to the generators (i.e. three phase, AC motors) the efficiency will be just as good as a straight diesel drive. Everything will be smaller and less complex and eventually should cost less.

- Recreational sailboats... I do not see it today, too many tradeoffs.

- Cargo ships... eventually, for some shorter routes, at below displacement speeds, it could make sense. May be coupled with autonomous navigation (electric seems to be more easily adaptable to autonomous than diesel drive).

- Navy... well, it is happening now but for different reasons. They use gas turbines or nuclear for more compact power and the power is much harder/inefficient to modify, so an electric/battery combo may be useful. Plus, they need a lot of electric power for other tasks, it is a totally different setup.

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Old 13-06-2022, 12:05   #33
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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Originally Posted by HeywoodJ View Post
All of these benefits of hybrid drives in cars are the result of varying speeds, starts/stops, acceleration/deceleration. None of them apply even to hybrid cars when driving at highway speeds, where it is strictly the ICE that powers the vehicle. Cruising sailboats, IME, are much more akin to driving at highway speeds. A steady, relatively high output that is not subject to the starts and stops of city driving. \¢
Actually its the opposite of what you said.

Sailboat use sail for steady power, and in narrow harbors the electric motor used in bursts to maintain control. This is very bad for diesel engine to run it only a few seconds. This has mostly short bursts, maybe to assist in tacking in channels with minimal energy use because the sails do all of the work of covering distance, the motor is only to maintain control and avoid hitting anything, and electric is more reliable for this too.

In fact you can generally sail all kinds of boats up to the dock, but with the electric motor to prevent crashing only in the case of misjudgement makes it easier and more confident to sail at higher speeds near obstructions but in the worst case only 10-15 seconds of power is used which isnt long enough for diesel engine to be viable.
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Old 13-06-2022, 13:11   #34
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzazz View Post
My view is that a diesel-electric drive needs to offer some advantages to the current alternatives to become viable. Road vehicles, especially in city traffic have a very different power usage profile than boats. I see the following options:



- Planing boats will always be gas or diesel, there is no viable alternative



- Displacement boats, trawlers for example, can benefit from complexity reduction. For example, a Nordhavn has one main engine, one wing engine, a couple of generators, tons of batteries, ballast, multiple alternators, etc. All of this can be replaced by two generators (for backup) feeding a properly sized electric motor/propeller combo. You can use batteries instead of ballast. That could work and if you match the motor to the generators (i.e. three phase, AC motors) the efficiency will be just as good as a straight diesel drive. Everything will be smaller and less complex and eventually should cost less.



- Recreational sailboats... I do not see it today, too many tradeoffs.



- Cargo ships... eventually, for some shorter routes, at below displacement speeds, it could make sense. May be coupled with autonomous navigation (electric seems to be more easily adaptable to autonomous than diesel drive).



- Navy... well, it is happening now but for different reasons. They use gas turbines or nuclear for more compact power and the power is much harder/inefficient to modify, so an electric/battery combo may be useful. Plus, they need a lot of electric power for other tasks, it is a totally different setup.



MV Ithaka

Hybrid drive and electric drive will gain market share as ICE fuel becomes more expensive or harder to get.

Short range planing boats could be electric, say for waterskiing. In the long term there will be a lot fewer planing boats and very few for long range, fossil fuel will become too expensive, people will change their expectations to match their budgets.

Trawlers will convert to parallel hybrid with direct coupling of ICE to prop, too much efficiency lost otherwise. Electric will be there to boost power for short to medium periods and for all electric maneuvering in and near port. Props will mostly convert to Controllable Pitch Props which results in a bigger efficiency gain. Average speeds will decrease.
Series hybrids result in too much efficiency lost.
https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/233718/reporting

In the long run cargo will convert to a combination of electro-fuels with sail power and speeds will decrease. Lower speed motoring is already here and experiments with sails is ongoing.
Electro-fuels are liquid or gaseous fuels synthesized from water and air using electricity. Butanol, ammonia, gas/petrol and diesel are all candidates for this and there are existing synthesis technologies for each. It’s just a question of which one has the best economics and ease of logistics. Hydrogen is not a likely candidate to to energy losses in liquifying and the loss of cargo volume due to relatively low energy density.

For recreational sailing all electric motoring is here and expanding as many people realize it’s limitations do not interfere with how they normally use their boats. I expect that all electric sailboats will take over 10% of the market or so. Boats with electric motors and small ICE motors will probably take over 30-50% of the market. Both will expand their market share as fuel becomes more expensive.

The Navy is continuing to use geared drives, their experiments with turbo-electric have never panned out, most recently with the 3 Zumwalts. What fuel they use in the future is up in the air.
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Old 13-06-2022, 14:29   #35
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzazz View Post
My view is that a diesel-electric drive needs to offer some advantages to the current alternatives to become viable. Road vehicles, especially in city traffic have a very different power usage profile than boats. I see the following options:

- Planing boats will always be gas or diesel, there is no viable alternative

- Displacement boats, trawlers for example, can benefit from complexity reduction. For example, a Nordhavn has one main engine, one wing engine, a couple of generators, tons of batteries, ballast, multiple alternators, etc. All of this can be replaced by two generators (for backup) feeding a properly sized electric motor/propeller combo. You can use batteries instead of ballast. That could work and if you match the motor to the generators (i.e. three phase, AC motors) the efficiency will be just as good as a straight diesel drive. Everything will be smaller and less complex and eventually should cost less.

- Recreational sailboats... I do not see it today, too many tradeoffs.

- Cargo ships... eventually, for some shorter routes, at below displacement speeds, it could make sense. May be coupled with autonomous navigation (electric seems to be more easily adaptable to autonomous than diesel drive).

- Navy... well, it is happening now but for different reasons. They use gas turbines or nuclear for more compact power and the power is much harder/inefficient to modify, so an electric/battery combo may be useful. Plus, they need a lot of electric power for other tasks, it is a totally different setup.

MV Ithaka
Your view is just that, a view...an opinion with nothing to support it. Your view is not compelling. The US NAVY has done this for surface warships and submarines, some of us have ACTUALLY DONE THIS for sailboats/displacement hulls. When you have some data or facts, not just opinions, by all means jump back in.
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Old 13-06-2022, 14:37   #36
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post

For recreational sailing all electric motoring is here and expanding as many people realize it’s limitations do not interfere with how they normally use their boats. I expect that all electric sailboats will take over 10% of the market or so. Boats with electric motors and small ICE motors will probably take over 30-50% of the market. Both will expand their market share as fuel becomes more expensive.
I would like nothing more than this to happen. But one thing left out of this discussion is the very small number of hours the vast majority of sailboat motors get used. It's impossible to justify the cost right now, unless you are an early adopter and will pay just for the idea of it. Road vehicles and commercial boats are in constant use so the ROI is easier to pencil out. When those other use cases bring down the component costs a lot more, the market penetration will grow. Look at the cost of the hybrid or electric drive options for those that offer them, and it's shocking, e.g. $75K, you can buy a lifetime of diesel for less than that on most sailboats.
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Old 13-06-2022, 15:12   #37
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

My 30 HP 3 phase PMAC motor, Sevcon Controller and all the controls and 48V DC charger cost $3500-- all paid for by selling the 30 HP Yanmar. The motor could be held in one hand unlike the Yanmar which took block and tackle to move. Of course batteries not included and the diesel genset was extra but I was going to do it anyway. Given the cost new of a marinized 30 HP diesel and its limitations, well I'm sold.
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Old 13-06-2022, 15:17   #38
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauruuru View Post
My 30 HP 3 phase PMAC motor, Sevcon Controller and all the controls and 48V DC charger cost $3500-- all paid for by selling the 30 HP Yanmar. The motor could be held in one hand unlike the Yanmar which took block and tackle to move. Of course batteries not included and the diesel genset was extra but I was going to do it anyway. Given the cost new of a marinized 30 HP diesel and its limitations, well I'm sold.
My biggest hurdle was the cost of the batteries when I got a low hours westerbeke for 100 I couldn't justify even the cost of the controller let alone motor or batteries . Even at 10 a gallon for diesel I would never spend that much on fuel.
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Old 13-06-2022, 15:55   #39
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark424 View Post
I would like nothing more than this to happen. But one thing left out of this discussion is the very small number of hours the vast majority of sailboat motors get used. It's impossible to justify the cost right now, unless you are an early adopter and will pay just for the idea of it. Road vehicles and commercial boats are in constant use so the ROI is easier to pencil out. When those other use cases bring down the component costs a lot more, the market penetration will grow. Look at the cost of the hybrid or electric drive options for those that offer them, and it's shocking, e.g. $75K, you can buy a lifetime of diesel for less than that on most sailboats.
Conversion will occur over a long period as the existing stock of motors wears out and need replacement before the vessels they are in need replacement.

For the boats I want, replacement with a parallel system would be about $13k. But then again I would be opting for an outboard inboard motor of about $3k and a 10kW electric drive @ $6k replacing the existing inboard ICE plus batteries which is are $2-4k depending on whether I went with FLA or LFP batteries.

For a 35'-40' sailboat a BetaMarine hybrid would be about $15-18K, plus batteries and and $3-5K for a Controllable Pitch Prop.

The $75k installation is probably OceanVolt which is intended for gold plated Condomarans.
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Old 14-06-2022, 09:30   #40
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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The diesel electric hybrid setups that I've read about don't work quite that way. The diesel generator just charges the batteries when needed. Motoring is always via the electric motor.

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia...?source=google

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/hunt...wered-by-elco/

They claim to be much more efficient.
That is not parallel hybrid. That is serial hybrid. There are actually probably more parallel hybrid systems on small yachts than serial hybrid.

Efficiency is very application specific. In general, an OPTIMIZED diesel + trans + prop setup will be more efficient. Optimized for the desired cruising speed, the hull, and prop clearance limitations. For steady state operation, it would be impossible to beat this for efficiency with any hybrid diesel/electric system, parallel or serial.

An extremely well engineered serial hybrid system can certainly outperform a straight diesel installation with "just stick something in there" design principles. When operation at very low speeds is needed for extended periods, as well as having capability of full power operation, diesel takes a hit on efficiency and ICE related issues like carbon deposits and low operating temperature. The generator can be ran entirely at it's most efficient point in the operating envelope and then shut down when not needed. Can't do that with straight diesel. But how important is this extra flexibility? Important enough to justify the extra expense? For most, no.

The benefit of a parallel hybrid system is you can if desired simply run the diesel coupled to the shaft via transmission, for max efficiency at cruising speed for extended periods. OR you can engage the electric in regen mode with the diesel charging batteries and also turning the prop. OR you can run electric only, diesel offline, for quiet operation, for docking, for instant-on emergency maneuvering, for "power tacking", or if the boat is a fast one, charging via regen. The parallel system is actually less complicated to DIY. Simply add a line shaft bearing and a pulley, belt, motor with pulley and clutch, and associated electronics, right to the prop shaft. Assuming of course that the transmission can tolerate the shaft spinning out of gear for extended periods.

Any electric system MUST be optimized for efficiency to be reasonably practical and successful. I have to call into question the saildrive idea. Inline motor > shaft > prop, I think are going to prove more efficient. There could well be other reasons to prefer saildrive but they would be vessel and application specific, or a matter of user/owner preference. Sort of like why some EP fans like electric outboards, Not as efficient but there can be other reasons to prefer them vs inboard.

I think you really should play around with electrifying a small skiff or dinghy or other small craft before you think about a serial hybrid saildrive system.

I have said it a hundred times. The best possible use of EP in a sailing yacht is straight EP, with shore power charging, in a boat mostly used for day sailing, overnights, etc. For this, it beats diesel or hybrid on many fronts, Cruising with EP comes with a lot of issues, and a hybrid system simply trades one set of issues for another. So you have hybrid. You still have to buy, pump, handle, clean up, and smell, diesel fuel. One strong point of EP is getting that big diesel tank off the boat. You still need it, with hybrid. One strong point of diesel is you don't need that huge battery bank for propulsion. You still (sort of) need it, with hybrid, or else if your diesel conks out, you are without mechanical propulsion. Straight EP in a day sailer is beautiful in its simplicity, quiet, cleanliness, and maneuvering characteristics, as well as extremely low maintenance and high dependability and immediate power availability. But if you add a diesel then you gain little, but keep many disadvantages of diesel.

Yeah I definitely see the attraction to hybrid diesel/electric systems, especially parallel hybrid. It is extremely flexible, with considerable redundancy, too. But it's not for everyone. For someone who is really up on the engineering and best operating practices, with a well designed system, yeah, cool. But you would be in a very small club. Resale interest would be reduced because people fear and distrust what they don't understand. That isn't always important but it could be if you ever have to sell.

Argue and defend if you like, won't bother me. I have built and owned EP and I love it, but I don't recommend it on just any cruising sailboat or for just any owner or skipper.
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Old 14-06-2022, 09:48   #41
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post



For a 35'-40' sailboat a BetaMarine hybrid would be about $15-18K
I've got the newest pricing for the Beta Hybrid Marine in front of right now. Starting for an HB20 with clutch is just under $25,000. They go up roughly $1000 for each 5hp on top of this.
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Old 14-06-2022, 10:30   #42
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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I've got the newest pricing for the Beta Hybrid Marine in front of right now. Starting for an HB20 with clutch is just under $25,000. They go up roughly $1000 for each 5hp on top of this.
I’ve had a hard time getting pricing. Can I get a copy?

20hp sounds about right for a 35-40’ understanding that the electric motor will boost output when needed.
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Old 14-06-2022, 10:49   #43
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

I don’t normally post critical responses:

This question is answered with even the most basic of searches. Obviously they exist, and the locomotive-train world have employed them for decades. Boats have employed them for less decades, and more than a page would list companies that offer just this.

Read. Know your boat’s needs and choose a system.

Cruisers on timelines don’t use hybrid or electric because it’s a loser. Day sailers and those without timelines have great success with electric or hybrid systems.

Batteries are expensive, diesel is cheap. Storage for either is limited. Solar is limited. Wind is a joke (relative to electric generation), and couch cruisers annoy me.

Go sailing. Then design something of note as a result of necessity demanding ingenuity.

Good day.
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Old 14-06-2022, 12:43   #44
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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Originally Posted by sv Stella Maris View Post
I don’t normally post critical responses:

This question is answered with even the most basic of searches. Obviously they exist, and the locomotive-train world have employed them for decades. Boats have employed them for less decades, and more than a page would list companies that offer just this.

Read. Know your boat’s needs and choose a system.

Cruisers on timelines don’t use hybrid or electric because it’s a loser. Day sailers and those without timelines have great success with electric or hybrid systems.

Batteries are expensive, diesel is cheap. Storage for either is limited. Solar is limited. Wind is a joke (relative to electric generation), and couch cruisers annoy me.

Go sailing. Then design something of note as a result of necessity demanding ingenuity.

Good day.
Reading this I see why you don't post much . This has nothing constructive to add to the discussion. Please try again
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Old 14-06-2022, 12:43   #45
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

https://oceanvolt.com/
and Arcona 40 a few berths down from me had this type of system. Would get 3 hours cruising then switch on the generator and could continue at 6kn. Check out the Arcona 43 Electric for the latest version.
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