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Old 29-05-2022, 13:19   #16
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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The equivalent outboard is twice the weight at 60kgs, but it would make life much easier for servicing and maintenance by being able to lift it off the boat.

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Old 29-05-2022, 14:13   #17
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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Does anyone manufacture a Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive?
In short, yes, and no. You can get a series diesel-electric hybrid using sail drives, where the saildrive is always electric and the diesel generator simply provides electricity and charges the batteries. Just check out Oceanvolt for diagrams and details.

However, the big problem that I see is that you are adding lots of cost and complexity for increased weight (a ton of batteries) and reduced range / performance when it comes to longer distance motoring. I've only done the calculations for my own situation, but a 45' catamaran would need two 15 kW Oceanvolt Saildrives. Based on the typical engine size in a 45' catamaran, if you converted it to just output electricity, you could generate roughly 10 kW, or about 2/3 of the power needed to push your engines to full throttle.

There is another interesting option out there that is closer to a parallel hybrid system on the new HH 44, but it's designed around a shaft driven prop, instead of a saildrive. Also, from reading the info, it's not truly parallel because there is no combined power sent to the drives from the diesel and the electric drive systems. That being said, it still looks pretty interesting at providing a solution with less compromises. Long distance motoring is all diesel directly driving the props and filling your batteries, and short distance motoring can be all electric.

Will someone make something similar to the HH 44 parallel hybrid drive using a saildrive? Maybe? The saildrive is nothing but a transmission, so could you add a second source of power input? Sure, it's just a matter of engineering, packaging, and market demand.
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Old 29-05-2022, 16:20   #18
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

The HH system is interesting but the regen will not be very good, they use folding props.

The OV system uses Controllable Pitch Props which is how they get such good regen, also why the system is so expensive, electronic pitch control is in the sail.

There are plenty of CPP manufacturers in Europe usable on shaft drives, at some point somebody is going to make a killing marrying that to a parallel hybrid.
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Old 29-05-2022, 16:31   #19
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Since diesel engines are more efficient (kwh/gallon of fuel) when loaded, why not couple a large electric generator to the engine, loading it to the most efficient range? When the batteries are fully charged, shut down the engine, running on only electric until the batteries need recharging. This way, on long distance trips, the engine would only need to run part of the time.
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Old 29-05-2022, 23:22   #20
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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You mean the pods that I linked to have an O-ring that requires yearly change? I never heard of that… is it on a moving part?
So I looked it up in their own manual, and it seems that I was being fed wrong information.
There is a seal to be replaced by a certified service centre, but it is every 5 years or 700 hours.
Same for the 3,6 and 12.0 cruise models.

Still something to consider.
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Old 29-05-2022, 23:28   #21
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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So I looked it up in their own manual, and it seems that I was being fed wrong information.
There is a seal to be replaced by a certified service centre, but it is every 5 years or 700 hours.
Same for the 3,6 and 12.0 cruise models.

Still something to consider.
That must be the shaft seal. All work on every engine must be done by certified service centers but yet many do it themselves.
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Old 03-06-2022, 07:39   #22
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Ballast can be an advantage. It'd reduce stow yet you'd know you have some nice heavy stuff along the keelson placed to your advantage.

Regenerative effort from propeller torque could possibly disturb flow directly infront of rudder though. Unseen disturbance might create harsh condition on rudder forces.

Extra ballast was nice on our old bouy. Only a little one, no electric motor but a decent battery bank weighing approximately 100kg on a LADEN cruiser displacing approximately 1 tonne. We used it to weigh down keelson (or full keel at 10 degree heel angle from centre with steel tapered edge others call a keel).
Is Australia's most popular trailer able keel yacht. National race match class, no rules broken adding weight. Racers ditch at around 20 knot. That extra 100kg in wind continuously above 35knot reader, haul sheered, mast step kicked, shroud spread load and twange become snap sheer main stay leading to a stretch sheer brace; punching windward with a squared spinnaker and all sail. We preferred the extra ballast, lengthened waterline on soft days, beat a bit better, run with white sails most time and 120 km in 12 hours was normal on 24footer.
Cavitation at rudder sux though, makes helm hard. If long keel was regen, maybe.. because torque development could be earlier and thus without harmful power to weight fluctuations but on alot of shallow keelson vessels, they might suffer.

Maybe consideration towards strengthening rig should be priority if extra ballast such as large battery banks are being sort after. We just had large bank because of minimal electronics and no rush to charge them up. We'd disappear a month often, no solar, no windmill, run the engine for not long every week and half or so..
Benefited from rough thanks to ballast. Didn't tack much thus didn't slow us much. Just wait abit longer to build speed. Just cruising anyhow.

I like idea. Looking at long keel. Hopefully there's room in bilge to build seal box and high breather. Engine bay has walkway either side being partial quarter cabins. Easy to open up hood and clean engine. I was thinking maybe a cog on shaft and a couple of small inductive machines to dog engage. No smell in difficult to flush harbour. Leave them disengaged and she's normal diesel. Idk. No boat, just a thought.

I'd want triggers though such as earth leak. Thicker cables than currents requirement to keep heat low. Diesel still needs to be used or lost hence seeing harbour only location required I doubt I will. 5 minute run out, 5 minute in plus flush. Saving cost of early rebuilding instead.
Battery bank, maybe. Ballast is lovely
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Old 03-06-2022, 08:04   #23
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Honestly I'd be interested in going with one of those hybrid marine systems if I could afford it. It's not just a propulsion thing. The propulsion batteries are also the house batteries, and I need large house batteries regardless of propulsion. Which means I need a large 48v bank no matter what. Once that's already on the table, then it's just a question of what else can I do with that power? Right now we're straight electric drive from the battery and charger, which limits our continuous speed to what the battery charger and generator can push through, and even going that slow, we run into heat problems.

If we could drop a small diesel on each shaft on top of the electrics, oh now we're talking. Day trips or other short mucking about don't need the diesels, but we could also run continuous hull speed any time.

Also it's a whole system kind of thing. Any change to something sets off a chain of other things that will need more power, something more specialized or proprietary. And if there's one thing I abhor it's proprietary solutions. Dropping in a hybrid solution lets me keep very standard 48v systems, rather than going to specialized motor controllers, chargers and inverters that I'd need for a higher voltage system that could do the same thing, without the diesel.
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Old 03-06-2022, 08:48   #24
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Michigan Eric said: "Does anyone manufacture a Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive? Does this seem like a good idea?"

Not to me, it doesn't. Why would you be dreaming of such complexities when dead simple means are available for achieving your five desiderata:

"Use the electric to go in and out of the harbor"

Why? Who cares what turns the screw as long as it turns? There is not a "green" argument in respect of this that cannot be easily defeated. What is common, engine direct coupled to prop shaft (NO saildrive!!!), is by far the simplest, cheapest and most easily maintained.

"Engage the prop to charge batteries while you sail"

Nope. The efficiency loss endemic to such a system means that it would have to be backed up with what we already have, viz a generator/alternator belt driven from the propulsion engine while it is engaged in its primary function - turning the prop shaft. The alternator supplied with the common makes of engine is a tad on the weenie side. Replace with a grown-up alternator driven by a beefed up belt drive off the front end of the propulsion diesel.


"Use the Diesel by itself for distance motoring while charging the batteries"

Isn't that PRECISELY what we do now with the standard set-up?

"Use the Diesel and electric together when you need extra oompf (like when motoring against a strong current (I'm thinking in particular upstream under the Blue Water bridge at the mouth of the St. Clair River, Great Lakes)"

You might like to have a butcher's at the theory of propeller design :-)! Small sailboats are NOT like diesel-electric locomotives. Just make sure you have 4HP per ton displacement delivered to a correctly sized propeller on the end of a conventional prop shaft, and Bob's yer Uncle! The fewer complexities you introduce the better off you are. Remember Willy Occam's admonition to "reduce entities", or, in American parlance: KISS!

"Have a large bank of Li-ion batteries, that can serve both to power the saildrive and as house batteries... probably best to have at least two switchable banks"

Scupper the saildrive! You don't need gear wheels within gear wheels, and you CERTAINLY don't need bits made from metals that are not particularly happy to be immersed in salt water! And all you need for batteries, really, in a 30-foot, 5 ton boat is a couple Group27 Lead/acid jobs. A common "1-B-2-OFF" switch is all you need to govern their use. Use battery #1 on days having an "odd" date, and Battery #2 on days having an "even" date. And don't draw either one down below 80%SOC. Replace them every 3 years as a matter of preventive maintenance. They are cheap. And above all, they meet Willy Occam's criteria.

All the best to you :-)!

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Old 03-06-2022, 08:57   #25
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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"Have a large bank of Li-ion batteries, that can serve both to power the saildrive and as house batteries... probably best to have at least two switchable banks"
Why have one for the price of one, when you can have two for the price of two?

A boat can always go as fast as you can afford to make it go. Unfortunately very few of us can afford to go as fast as we'd like to. Compromises have to be on the table, and doubling the cost, weight and space of a battery bank isn't always the best compromise.
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Old 03-06-2022, 09:09   #26
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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Originally Posted by Michigan_Eric View Post
Does anyone manufacture a Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive?

Does this seem like a good idea? I'm sure it would be an expensive power option, but it would have a lot of advantages that I probably don't have to elaborate on here, but here are a few anyway:
  • Use the electric to go in and out of the harbor
  • Engage the prop to charge batteries while you sail
  • Use the Diesel by itself for distance motoring while charging the batteries
  • Use the Diesel and electric together when you need extra oompf (like when motoring against a strong current (I'm thinking in particular upstream under the Blue Water bridge at the mouth of the St. Clair River, Great Lakes)
  • Have a large bank of Li-ion batteries, that can serve both to power the saildrive and as house batteries... probably best to have at least two switchable banks
Any thoughts?

Offhand, the complexity would be a disadvantage, but if built by a reputable manufacturer, and maybe not in its first generation, the reliability would be good.
What type of boat? In a catamaran install one of each a diesel saildrive and in the other hull the electric and battery bank.
One problem I see is you state Li-ion. I hope you mean specificly lifepo4
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Old 13-06-2022, 06:58   #27
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

https://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/
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Old 13-06-2022, 07:11   #28
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

A wooden ship named Tally Ho is getting a diesel-electric hybrid.

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Old 13-06-2022, 08:08   #29
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

Steyr Motors makes an interesting hybrid system, been out since 2008 I believe

https://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/stey...28-530016.html
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Old 13-06-2022, 10:17   #30
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Re: Diesel-electric hybrid saildrive

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Antares Catamarans are using this system in their new offering.
https://www.antarescatamarans.com/an...ybrid-details/
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