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14-11-2022, 13:26
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 486
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuryRigJalopy
Oil was changed, oil reports were sent for analysis after 3 subsequent oil changes with no excessive metal noticed. No issues in compression, RPM, oil consumption, or heat.
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Wow, that's is unfortunate and an extremely rare event.
Good news is, as it was at idle then most likely very limited wear occurred but it's hard to be confident without some more details regarding the oil analysis.
Dropped oil happened at 250hrs and your now at 500hrs but you say you have done an oil analysis after 3 oil changes which suggests to me that you have done an oil analysis on fresh oil?
For peace of mind, do a regular analysis at every 150hrs oil change to monitor engine wear. Any adverse effects will probably not be evident until you have several thousand hrs on the engine, but if it does happen then you can avoid any major damage and probably get by with a cheap bottom end rebuild to get to full life.
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14-11-2022, 13:36
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#47
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Credit, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 7,060
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballsnall
Dropped oil happened at 250hrs and your now at 500hrs but you say you have done an oil analysis after 3 oil changes which suggests to me that you have done an oil analysis on fresh oil?
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Anything much less than 50hrs run time makes oil analysis pointless
__________________
If you're not laughing, you're not doin' it right.
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15-11-2022, 02:33
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 486
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Some of them potentially, that's what I'm trying to establish, at what hrs were they done.
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15-11-2022, 05:15
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#49
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuryRigJalopy
Do you check the tightness of your oil filter between oil changes? We have since added a hose clamp on the filter and wired tied the filter to prevent this from happening again. I have learned that airplanes and some race vehicles wire tie filters, some of their filters have a hole on the bottom removal nut for this reason. I thought I was giving the engine a thorough check but have never seen a filter come loose so I don't check, overtightening is bad as well.
I apologize, I mis-typed, we are at 500 hours now. The loss of oil was at just under 250 hours. We received the boat with ~100 hours and the maintenance log indicated the oil was changed at the recommended 50 hours (which it obviously was not since the oil filter was still painted) but that's another issue.
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If it was changed at 50hrs, it's on the maintenance person who changed the oil. Manufacturer nor you have no way of knowing if the filter was removed (or loosened), so you can't really prove anything is the manufacturer's responsibility.
And waiting a further 250hr, even if you find excessive wear in the engine, you now have a tough time proving the excess wear didn't happen later.
Ultimately, to make a legal claim, you have to prove you incurred a loss or damage that is the manufacturer's responsibility.
- You have very weak (if any) proof the manufacture did anything wrong.
- You kept using it for 250hr more clouding the issue.
- All the reasonable tests show the engine to be fine.
Speculation that it MIGHT have caused damage won't win in court. You need some sort of proof. With the engine running perfectly fine, you would have to tear the engine down (presumably with a representative from the manufacturer to confirm) and show some sort of damage.
You might send an email documenting your concerns (get the details correct or it will hurt your case) to the dealer & manufacturer and if you are lucky, they might offer some compensation or something...but I really wouldn't count on it.
At best, if the engine fails in the near future and you do wind up tearing it down, it would provide a paper trail that you tried to resolve it. Still unlikely, you would win the case.
Not saying it isn't the manufacturer's fault but at best you may get some goodwill gesture...with a clearly worded disclaimer that they are not taking responsibility.
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15-11-2022, 08:34
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,954
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
There's no identifiable damage, and you're responsible for your oil changes.
So, ummm, no.
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15-11-2022, 08:54
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,524
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
If a Yanmar, Yanmar requires that the 50 hour check be done by a Yanmar certified mechanic. The builder's "tech" probably wasn't. So I wouldn't bring this directly to Yanmar's attention as it would likely invalidate any future warranty claims.
It would be much smarter to pursue a warranty claim through the builder as it was their tech's error - while most builders specifically exempt the engine from from their warranty they are responsible for a correctly installed engine at delivery. Since the oil filter was not correctly tightened by them, they should make it right. They might have luck through the engine manufacturer as their engine salesman cares about keeping his builders happy.
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15-11-2022, 10:10
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,085
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
I can't imagine any new engine with a long interval for the initial oil change AND filter change. On a new engine the rings seat in. The purpose of an early initial oil and filter change is to get the 'break-in oil' out along with any fragments from the break-in period.
Maybe this is the old way of doing things??
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15-11-2022, 12:01
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#53
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,432
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Hi, JuryRigJalopy,
Over many years, I have never had an oil filter come loose, after putting one one myself. I'm not a particularly strong individual. I'm wondering what might have happened to the boat that would/could have caused it to loosen itself? Did something happen, and maybe you weren't told about it??????
I have had other items unscrew themselves due to vibration, but never an oil filter.
Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
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15-11-2022, 13:38
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: France, britanny
Boat: twinkeels, 9m
Posts: 407
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
me too, for more than 50 years and since filters have been fitted to engines, I have never seen an oil filter come loose ...
./.
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15-11-2022, 14:03
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#55
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,302
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
I was on a boat that lost its oil pressure sensor and lost most of its oil, and ran for a few hours at 2100 rpm before we discovered it, by accident! There was no damage to engine we could discern, compression still ok and oil was clean of metal fragments. I am sure idling without oil pressure didn't do the engine any good, but it is always amazing to me how much abuse a diesel can take and keep on ticking. I bet your engine is ok and there is no way to know how many hours you have lost in engine life, if any.
Losing an oil filter is an odd one.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
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15-11-2022, 14:28
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#56
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,251
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuryRigJalopy
A new boat that I own had it's oil filter come loose just before it's first scheduled oil change at 500 hours, oil filter was still painted blue from factory. The 4 cylinder 38 HP diesel engine ran at idle for about 20 minutes with zero oil pressure before being noticed (dummy light was also faulty). Oil was changed, oil reports were sent for analysis after 3 subsequent oil changes with no excessive metal noticed. No issues in compression, RPM, oil consumption, or heat.
....... should the manufacturer be liable for a new engine if it was under warranty even though there is no noticeable performance loss? It is my assumption that excessive wear was caused by this and the engine will need a major overhaul sooner than it would otherwise even if there are no signs of issues after running with no oil. This overhaul would be needed after the warranty is expired.
I assume the engine should achieve a bare minimum of 5k hours if ran hard and 10-15k hours if it was maintained and operated optimally. Any guess to how much this even decreased the life of the engine?
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Hi JuryRigJalopy I’ve been following your thread with interest and there are a few things that puzzle me. I’ve had my fair share of “ no oil in the engine” events for a variety of reasons but yours is different in many ways so here are a few thoughts.
1. A new boat with an inexplicable 100 hrs on the engine.
2. The filter came loose idling for 20 mins. (On a marina??)
3. The low lube oil alarm was inoperative.
4. You apparently just topped up the oil and resumed normal service.
5. No approach to the vessel builder or engine supplier was made at the time with an immediate warranty claim.
6. You seem very reluctant to share any information regarding the engine make other than “it’s blue and 38 hp” and nothing re the boat manufacturer at all.
Since you only joined the forum on 10/11 and made your first post on 10 /11 I can understand your lack of familiarity with the way that forum members help you to solve the problems raised ...... and you’ve had some very good answers from some very sensible and informed forum members......they rely on accurate consistent information and come up with really excellent ideas and fixes.
I hope your engine lives a long happy life and look forward to hearing from you here in the future......
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15-11-2022, 17:36
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Easton, MD
Boat: 15' Catboat, Bristol 35.5
Posts: 3,510
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
The engine alarm should sound when the start key is turned to the on position before starting since there is no oil pressure before starting the engine. It a engine alarm check every time the engine is started. You ignored the fault.
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15-11-2022, 18:19
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#58
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2019
Boat: Beneteau 432, C&C Landfall 42, Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 6,273
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Diesel engines are remarkable robust. I got seawater inside my engine one time. Long story, but engine was filled with seawater from top to bottom and had seized up solid.
I removed the cylinder head, managed to pump all the water out and with a sledgehammer managed to get some movement out of the pistons, filled it up with new oil, put the original cylinder head gasket back and hit the starter button.
Damned if it didn't start right up. Did a few more oil changes and that thang purred like a kitten for several years on. Smoked a tad, but nothing of any significance.
It did make me aware that keeping an eye on the diesel engine behoves any sailor's dutiful attention to routine maintenance.
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15-11-2022, 21:12
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#59
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 717
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Yeah, nope… no case to be made. Sorry skip.
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16-11-2022, 08:35
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 115
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Re: Complete loss of oil in new boat due to loose oil filter, is the manufacturer lia
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV
Diesel engines are remarkable robust. I got seawater inside my engine one time. Long story, but engine was filled with seawater from top to bottom and had seized up solid.
I removed the cylinder head, managed to pump all the water out and with a sledgehammer managed to get some movement out of the pistons, filled it up with new oil, put the original cylinder head gasket back and hit the starter button.
Damned if it didn't start right up. Did a few more oil changes and that thang purred like a kitten for several years on. Smoked a tad, but nothing of any significance.
It did make me aware that keeping an eye on the diesel engine behoves any sailor's dutiful attention to routine maintenance.
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Marine Service Provider? OMG!
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