Common rail marine diesel engine v standard

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Yeah, but CD ignition came as a voluntary improvement to a troublesome existing technology. CR as a response to mandated emission control, and as a replacement for an extremely reliable technology is a bit different.

There are surely advantages to CR engines, but long term reliability in the yachting environment seems questionable. I hope that my Kubota sees me out!

Jim

You'll be OK!

Your Kubota can still be rebuilt to almost zero time so you can get another lifetime from your engine and if you buy double the parts, your might get another two lifetimes . Might run out of diesel before the engine dies...

If only we could do this with our bodies.

Stay well!

[Jason Flare]

Any idea on how long into the future Beta will produce the mechanical 50 h.p. before they will need to switch to common rail?

I would like to repower with a mechanical diesel but have been putting it off.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Any idea on how long into the future Beta will produce the mechanical 50 h.p. before they will need to switch to common rail?

I would like to repower with a mechanical diesel but have been putting it off.

Just a guess but I suspect that as long as Kubota makes the V2203 engine that Beta uses the 50 will be available.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by stormalong

Just a guess but I suspect that as long as Kubota makes the V2203 engine that Beta uses the 50 will be available.

Better hope all those skidsteers/Bobcats that use the V2203 don’t start needing CR for emissions. Kubota makes the world’s most diesels under 100 hp and probably only a tiny fraction get lucky enough to go to marine use.
But... they get Tier 3 emissions using mechanical system so hopefully that is enough for a while.... as for me, by the time my new Beta 50 wears out Maybe electric propulsion for cruising will be a reality.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It’s really usually up to 30K.
And it’s only in the rail, or from the HP pump and rail. It would have to be a tiny leak to maintain pressure though at those kinds of pressures, the pump is a low volume one.
It’s coming guys, just like electronic ignition did, and I don’t miss points and condenser.

But at least with the points a matchbook striker would normally get you back on the road.

[wreckless]

Maybe my experience will be helpful to you.

As an owner of both types of engines in two different boats and the common rail engine is in the Mexico Riviera. I have had major problems in both over my many years of fishing these. Performance wise l would take the CR and electonic over the non electronic, no question. Last year while heading offshore with my non electronic I had a sudden failure of a thermostat or other issue causing an engine to overheat and no alarm went off. I did not see the guage until I noticed a different sound from the engine. It was a total loss of the engine, 28k rebuild bill. I limped back to port, 25 miles on the other engine.

Now, in Mexico with my Volvo Penta D-6 370 engines in my boat, my first problem was a bad fuel sensor which automatically retarded the performance while fishing and I could only run up to 1500 rpm on that engine. I trolled back 10 miles and completed my fishing trip. The self diagnostic told me where the problem was located and I found that the sensor was under a recall and so I replaced it and it was fine. An unneccessary inconveniece. My next problem with this engine was that the batteries had been left to run down and my Captain jumped started the engine with a large battery charger for cars. I got about a half mile and the engine shifted to neutral and would not engage. I went back to port and started looking for a mechanic. I went through 4 of them, one even said he was a Volvo specialist. They had me remove the computer and take it to a repair shop who said it was fried. I even purchased another computer, (2.5K) but it had to be programmed for the engine and after bringing in a Volvo Penta mechanic with a Volvo programming device, paying him a 1k upfront he reprogrammed the old computer (there was really nothing wrong with it, it just lost its programmong) and I have been fine since. It was a major headache but not as bad as my older boat and I am stuck with a spare new computer.

I like the electronic controlled engines but I think if you are ever going to be going any distance offshore you need two engines or some means to return to port if you have a problem. You can do maintenance yourself on either but unless you are really a specialist with experience on either type of engine there is very little you can do yourself. The electronic controlled engine should shut itself down before your engine has a catastrophic failure and maybe it will happen when it should not but considering the cost of a major overhaul I think its a better choice.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cadence

But at least with the points a matchbook striker would normally get you back on the road.

Fingernail file, you used the cover of a matchbook to gap them, cover mikes out between 18 and 22 thou
Hard part for me was working through the little hole in a Husqvarna’s flywheel to get to the points.
On V8 cars, And my VW’s I learned to just take the distributor out to work on it, it was easier that way.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Fingernail file, you used the cover of a matchbook to gap them, cover mikes out between 18 and 22 thou
Hard part for me was working through the little hole in a Husqvarna’s flywheel to get to the points.
On V8 cars, And my VW’s I learned to just take the distributor out to work on it, it was easier that way.

That's back in the good old days. I guess because we were young. they were the good old days. The engines went to hell in a100K.

[jr_spyder]

The subject of a lightning strike came up earlier. I can confirm another boat, a brand new big cat with two CR engines, was struck by lightening and the engines became useless. Same for his CR generator. Painful.

The owner also told me a story, if I have this right, that since he used the boat both personally and also had it out for charter (he had a permanent crew) that when it was built with commercial use in mind he had no choice but to get CR engines. Regs required it - not sure for what country. Sorry I don't have more clarity, but good questions to ask if this is you someday.

[Sailor 99]

So here is my 2 cents worth.


You want an naturally aspirated non electronic diesel like a beta. You get them running and they run till the fuel is gone.. Simple I bought a beta and not a nani for exactly that reason. The nani diesel was turbo.



Get into turbo chargers and common rail electronic fuel delivery and you are in my honest impression looking a world of hurt if something goes wrong and your not at a dock.


1) Turbo's. Great for making a small engine give large horse power. BUT... if the turbo breaks the engine will barely run at idle and you can not rev it up. The reason... The turbo constantly pushes air into the engine from the moment of ignition. Even at idle. No your are not boosting at idle but the turbo is still supplying the air. If the turbo is not turning then there is no room for the air to get by to run the engine.


Ask the dump truck guys or anyone who drives long haul. Once the turbo goes your going to be calling a tow truck. Last I checked there are few tow trucks on the ocean and they are expensive if they can get there in time. Read they get your boat as salvage.



I had a buddy drove a dump truck. He said turbo went one day on a site. The only think they could do was get it out of the work area and it took a long time and I think they used a buldozer to help. They did not drive away, it got a heavy tow.


2) Electronics. If the electronics breaks you are toast. Full stop.




Now I read all of the discussion on rebuilding a high pressure fuel pump. Yes they go but they don't just go poof. They go over a long time period. You are well aware that they need service long before the boat will not run. You should be using a fuel additive to add lubricity to the fuel because the low sulfur fuel does not provide lubricity and the pumps wear faster. Take care of it and if you don't get 10,000 hours out of it before it needs any service there is something wrong.



Now imagine your in a storm and you need to get in to that island through that entrance in the reef because you have injured crew or your crew is sick or there is no place to anchor and your turbo is gone or the electronics is acting up.


Never been there but I am sure the natives are less than impressed when you wrecked your boat on their nice reef.


Dark Horse
75 Beta in a 51 foot Beneteau Idyll.

[ferhomme96]

Can you start a CR engine with a hand crank and no power whatsoever onboard to get the ECU or whatever working?
If not then get an older mechanical fuel pump engine.
Petter and Lister hand cranks were the choice for lighthouse power, and most Lifeboat engines in the UK, and the world.
You can spin them by hand with the decompression lever to prime the injectors and then they start right up even in the dead of winter.
One of the IACS and SOLAS rules is that you need to be able to start any emergency engine by Hand. "Hand" includes handpumping a hydraulic accumulator for a hydraulic starter.
Serious consideration for anyone offshore.
Have that T shirt

In fact, EXACTLY, what the first post in this thread had to say.

[ferhomme96]

sorry, make that the sixth post
LEPKE
If you're crossing oceans or have other reasons for reliability, I would pick an engine that was 100% mechanical with no electrical needs other than starting.

[wreckless]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

So here is my 2 cents worth.


You want an naturally aspirated non electronic diesel like a beta. You get them running and they run till the fuel is gone.. Simple I bought a beta and not a nani for exactly that reason. The nani diesel was turbo.



Get into turbo chargers and common rail electronic fuel delivery and you are in my honest impression looking a world of hurt if something goes wrong and your not at a dock.


1) Turbo's. Great for making a small engine give large horse power. BUT... if the turbo breaks the engine will barely run at idle and you can not rev it up. The reason... The turbo constantly pushes air into the engine from the moment of ignition. Even at idle. No your are not boosting at idle but the turbo is still supplying the air. If the turbo is not turning then there is no room for the air to get by to run the engine.


Ask the dump truck guys or anyone who drives long haul. Once the turbo goes your going to be calling a tow truck. Last I checked there are few tow trucks on the ocean and they are expensive if they can get there in time. Read they get your boat as salvage.



I had a buddy drove a dump truck. He said turbo went one day on a site. The only think they could do was get it out of the work area and it took a long time and I think they used a buldozer to help. They did not drive away, it got a heavy tow.


2) Electronics. If the electronics breaks you are toast. Full stop.




Now I read all of the discussion on rebuilding a high pressure fuel pump. Yes they go but they don't just go poof. They go over a long time period. You are well aware that they need service long before the boat will not run. You should be using a fuel additive to add lubricity to the fuel because the low sulfur fuel does not provide lubricity and the pumps wear faster. Take care of it and if you don't get 10,000 hours out of it before it needs any service there is something wrong.



Now imagine your in a storm and you need to get in to that island through that entrance in the reef because you have injured crew or your crew is sick or there is no place to anchor and your turbo is gone or the electronics is acting up.


Never been there but I am sure the natives are less than impressed when you wrecked your boat on their nice reef.


Dark Horse
75 Beta in a 51 foot Beneteau Idyll.

I had a turbo go on Detroit 6v53T and it continued to run to get me back to port, gave a lot of black smoke and had less rpm but still ran. Without turbos you just might not have enough power to get on to plane. It would be nice not to have them but you cannot get naturally aspirated engines that will give you the power needed and fit into most boats.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

So here is my 2 cents worth.


You want an naturally aspirated non electronic diesel like a beta. You get them running and they run till the fuel is gone.. Simple I bought a beta and not a nani for exactly that reason. The nani diesel was turbo.



Get into turbo chargers and common rail electronic fuel delivery and you are in my honest impression looking a world of hurt if something goes wrong and your not at a dock.


1) Turbo's. Great for making a small engine give large horse power. BUT... if the turbo breaks the engine will barely run at idle and you can not rev it up. The reason... The turbo constantly pushes air into the engine from the moment of ignition. Even at idle. No your are not boosting at idle but the turbo is still supplying the air. If the turbo is not turning then there is no room for the air to get by to run the engine.


Ask the dump truck guys or anyone who drives long haul. Once the turbo goes your going to be calling a tow truck. Last I checked there are few tow trucks on the ocean and they are expensive if they can get there in time. Read they get your boat as salvage.



I had a buddy drove a dump truck. He said turbo went one day on a site. The only think they could do was get it out of the work area and it took a long time and I think they used a buldozer to help. They did not drive away, it got a heavy tow.


2) Electronics. If the electronics breaks you are toast. Full stop.




Now I read all of the discussion on rebuilding a high pressure fuel pump. Yes they go but they don't just go poof. They go over a long time period. You are well aware that they need service long before the boat will not run. You should be using a fuel additive to add lubricity to the fuel because the low sulfur fuel does not provide lubricity and the pumps wear faster. Take care of it and if you don't get 10,000 hours out of it before it needs any service there is something wrong.



Now imagine your in a storm and you need to get in to that island through that entrance in the reef because you have injured crew or your crew is sick or there is no place to anchor and your turbo is gone or the electronics is acting up.


Never been there but I am sure the natives are less than impressed when you wrecked your boat on their nice reef.


Dark Horse
75 Beta in a 51 foot Beneteau Idyll.

It’s obvious that neither you nor your friend know how a turbo works

[poiu]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I never thought about the lighting angle. I've met quite a few boats over the years that have suffered lightning strikes. That concern is enough for me to not want an electrity dependent engine.

It’s easier said than done. Even with a non CR engine the battery, solenoid and starter motor are all electric of course and can be killed by lightning and other diseases. Big engines can’t be turned by hand even with decompression. There are wind up spring starters I have read about. It may be good to have one as a spare starter. That way you can be totally electric free and have redundancy in starting.