Chinese Diesel Engines

[romanos2b]

Anybody tried the marine Guangxi Qixing Power engines ? They are supposed to run 10000 hours without major overhaul, with all the ISO norms you need ...
Diesel Engine - Guangxi Qixing Power Equipment Co., Ltd.

Our generator sets include those which are applied in domestic brand-name engines such as Hechai, Regents ,Cummins, Yuchai, Shangchai as well as foreign brand-name engines such as Mitsubishi, Volvo, Daewoo, Mercedes-Benz and Perkins

[Madcatter]

I know that this is a bit different than marine engines but I think the idea is the same. 4 years ago my brother bought a Mahindra tractor that is built in china, within 2 years of light use it was in the scrap yard. I own a 10 year old Kubota and have had no problems. The Mahindra motor was junk, when he changed the oil, (which he did often) it was gray and silver and felt like sand. The motor suffered a catastrophic failure at 200 hours of use. All I know is that he had this tractor for a short time and I am still using my old Kubota. For diesel engines it is American/Canadian, Japanese, or European for me. I owned a trucking company, and have a lot of experience with Diesel motors, Volvo, is my Favorite( reliable, clean and easy to maintain), next is Cummins. remember the old adage " you get what you pay for."

[Teknav]

Hiya Crabby! In engineering schools, students are taught specs of materials to be used in production, with an eye on the cost of manufacture. There are minimum requirements that must be met in producing life-depending heavy duty equipment. A minimal cost is determined in the production of this heavy duty equipment. If someone produces that equipment below the established minimum cost, engineers are capable in determining what was "sacrificed/short changed" during production. Engineers who studied Diesel combustion, know why this type of engine MUST be heavy, when all is said and done. It really doesn't matter which country sells low quality engines. It matters to me, as an Engineer, that it meets minimum specs which will translate in longevity, ease of service and reliability. When I look at an engine's specs, I look at the metals used, the gaskets, the design (in/out), heat generation, ease of service, availability of parts and their cost, the cooling system, the viscosity of oil recommended for usage, the frequency of preventive maintenance, and so on. If the specs don't cut it, I will not buy that engine. Mauritz

[Group9]

Originally Posted by NoTies

Wrong twice. Firstly because your post is contrary to forum rules in that it is offensively racist and secondly, because China can manufacture extremely high quality products if the market demands it.
I suggest you take your posts to www.kkk.com

When someone is saying that Japanese make good engines, and Chinese make bad engines, that is nationalist talk, not racist talk.

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by Madcatter

I know that this is a bit different than marine engines but I think the idea is the same. 4 years ago my brother bought a Mahindra tractor that is built in china, within 2 years of light use it was in the scrap yard. I own a 10 year old Kubota and have had no problems. The Mahindra motor was junk, when he changed the oil, (which he did often) it was gray and silver and felt like sand. The motor suffered a catastrophic failure at 200 hours of use. All I know is that he had this tractor for a short time and I am still using my old Kubota. For diesel engines it is American/Canadian, Japanese, or European for me. I owned a trucking company, and have a lot of experience with Diesel motors, Volvo, is my Favorite( reliable, clean and easy to maintain), next is Cummins. remember the old adage " you get what you pay for."

I call Bull ****.......From Mahindra "Mahindra Tractors Offers Industryç—´ Best 5-Year Warranty Program
Mahindra USA, a leader in the compact and utility tractor market, is pleased to announce the release of their new 釘est in Class 5-year limited warranty program effective October 1, 2009. All Mahindra tractors will now have a two-year bumper to bumper warranty plus an additional three-year warranty on the drive train for residential usage (excludes 2525).

[Madcatter]

Maybe it was just his luck, or maybe just a bad engine, all I know is that he is borrowing my tractor and I am not borrowing his. I am not saying that all Chinese products are bad, but I believe you get what you pay for. I will spend more for quality products that will last, it is just cheaper over the long haul.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Answers I've heard included that one could buy underwear and motor oil with just one stop. Yawn.

Good news tho, just read Wally has earmarked $50B USD (billion not bucks) to buy Murican goods over the next 10 years. Not all that patriotic, has to do with shipping "high cube" (bulky) items like furniture.

This Chinese diesel question bugs me. You know they have some quality engines cuz they've got tractors, pickup trucks, pumps, fishing boats, gen sets, aircraft carriers, trains ... why wouldn't they have reliable small diesels?

We'd all better learn a little Chinese.

早安

Nee how mia, Blue Crab ,They do have reliable small diesels,but they are not indigenous,There aircraft carrier(singular) is a Ukranian(former Soviet)30-40 yr old salvage,they have no reliable aircraft engines (all russian) there trains speak for themselves(crash ,bang ,boom!) There fishing boats(sport fishing)(export) use Yamaha or Honda if they want dependability or Hino(African and south america exports) if they dont mind weight and displacment inefficentcie(sp?) Se sin(sp?)...

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

you don't believe in economic empires?

This I belive is the future for our future New world order,a new way of Accounting..I think Europeans call it "Vat",of course that is all subject to change in a few years when North America becomes the go to place for "All" things Petrolem ,then it will revert back to business as usual..China may be rising to become "A" world power but the west is not losing or declining as it does(the rise of China dosent mean the decline of the west)Opec as we know it will not be here in 5-10 yrs ..Sailboats will be made in China(inexpensive ones)and sailboats will be made in the west(expensive ones) The price of gas will drop to less than $2.00 within 5 yrs(North America) when it all comes on line, I predict...I could be wrong... Nah I am right..

[Delfin]

The Chinese are just as capable of making quality products as any other nation, but they don't happen as a result of some historic and indigenous commitment to quality manufacturing. They happen because the purchaser demands the quality. High end clothing manufacturers buy their cloth from Italy, but have it sewn in China under strict supervision producing a luxury product of the highest standard half the cost it would be if they paid the Italians to sew it.

Diesel engines require such a vast array of quality inputs that I personally wouldn't buy one unless it had the Cummins, CAT, Kabota, etc. name stamped on it. This isn't because I am a racist, but because I would assume that Cummins et al would monitor everything from metallurgy to the frequency of re-tooling to ensure their brand didn't get trashed, while the Chinese would be less enthusiastic about protecting whatever brand name was currently stamped on the shipping container. In the 80s, our local tractor dealer started importing Belarus tractors from the Soviets. They cost about half what an IH cost. First thing they did when they got one was to replace all gaskets, since the ones installed in the factory leaked like sieves. That helped, but the big problem was that the Russian factories didn't re-tool frequently enough because it was expensive, so the tolerances went from too tight to too loose, depending on where you were in the manufacturing run. Bottom line, they sucked for a lot of reasons, simply proving that complex pieces of equipment require complex Q.C. if you don't want to end up regretting the purchase.

[Dick Pluta]

Do the names Catepillar, Detroit Diesel and GM ring a bell? Blame the absence of diesels in cars on the Sierra Club.

Dick Pluta
AEGEA
Cape Coral FL

[RedHerring]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There's a common mis conception about ISO 9000.

An old surveyor from Det Norske Veritas told me this anecdote. Once upon a time he was called upon to perform a survey of cargo delivery process used by some junk ship company operating in Papua New Guniea, for the purposes of ISO 9001 certification. 9001 is a service company sibling of 9000 (which is for manufacturing). According to the surveyor, his client needed ISO certification to do government work.

The process he observed went as follows:

1. The junk arrives at an island, in front of two and a half huts on the beach, drops anchor and honks.

2. Consignee (receiver of cargo) arrives by swimming from shore.

3. Consignee produces the bill of lading by pulling a sealed plastic bag out of his swimming trunks.

4. The necessary paperwork is done, and the cargo is delivered by throwing a crate overboard.

5. Consignee departs from the vessel the same way he arrived, pulling the cargo in his wake.

6. The junk lifts anchor and sails into the sunset.

7. Since the surveyor can observe traceability, accountability and all the other prerequisite ilities, he finds the whole affair to be entirely ISO 9001-compliant.

[Lake-Effect]

One thing that maybe hasn't been considered enough in this thread: there are multiple reasons why lower-cost goods hit the market.

We've been mainly discussing the North American/first-world reason - enticing consumers with cheap stuff, leading to corporate profit, but at the cost of outsourcing jobs and ... cheap stuff that doesn't last. Example - most new major appliances won't last the 20+ years you could get from an appliance made ... 20 years ago. All this cheap stuff helps mask the fact that the financial state of the US middle and lower classes has essentially stagnated over the last several years. That's an argument for another website...

The other reason why cheap stuff is made and sold is that in much of the world, they simply cannot afford to buy the top-line brands. And, their own labour costs are such that it does make economic sense for them to put in extra time fixing the cheap stuff.

World cruisers and travellers can attest that there's often a different of makes and models of things you see in developing countries that don't show up in the first world for one reason or another. Example; small, affordable (but polluting) 2-stroke motorbikes are legion in the developing world, but not allowed into countries with stricter air-pollution regulations. Boat motors, generators, pumps, etc etc - same deal. Even here though, there's awareness of what lasts and what doesn't, and the better brands are coveted.

This is why the Honda O/B on your dink is a source of great attraction

Back to the main topic of this thread... On your boat, I would think that the top goals for your engine are reliability, longevity, low maintenance costs over a long lifespan - the exact opposite of a bargain engine's value proposition. Amortised over the expected lifespan, a quality engine isn't actually expensive. For that reason, unless you intend to just fix and dump a boat, it makes sense to put in the best engine you can afford (where 'best' is proven by history and use), and at present, there's just a small handful of brands with that history, and none of those brands are Chinese.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Delfin

The Chinese are just as capable of making quality products as any other nation, but they don't happen as a result of some historic and indigenous commitment to quality manufacturing. They happen because the purchaser demands the quality. High end clothing manufacturers buy their cloth from Italy, but have it sewn in China under strict supervision producing a luxury product of the highest standard half the cost it would be if they paid the Italians to sew it.

Diesel engines require such a vast array of quality inputs that I personally wouldn't buy one unless it had the Cummins, CAT, Kabota, etc. name stamped on it. This isn't because I am a racist, but because I would assume that Cummins et al would monitor everything from metallurgy to the frequency of re-tooling to ensure their brand didn't get trashed, while the Chinese would be less enthusiastic about protecting whatever brand name was currently stamped on the shipping container. In the 80s, our local tractor dealer started importing Belarus tractors from the Soviets. They cost about half what an IH cost. First thing they did when they got one was to replace all gaskets, since the ones installed in the factory leaked like sieves. That helped, but the big problem was that the Russian factories didn't re-tool frequently enough because it was expensive, so the tolerances went from too tight to too loose, depending on where you were in the manufacturing run. Bottom line, they sucked for a lot of reasons, simply proving that complex pieces of equipment require complex Q.C. if you don't want to end up regretting the purchase.

I went thru the/a factory in Minsk in 1991,I got excited about buying a 35 hp tractor for $1800.00-2500.00 if you by 10 or more! I was paying 1000 a pop for paragliders(cloth and string! but no duties for aircraft parts in the CZ..)I thought I had a sweet deal...alas ,they were junk!! They are much better these days..Good tractor

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

One thing that maybe hasn't been considered enough in this thread: there are multiple reasons why lower-cost goods hit the market.

We've been mainly discussing the North American/first-world reason - enticing consumers with cheap stuff, leading to corporate profit, but at the cost of outsourcing jobs and ... cheap stuff that doesn't last. Example - most new major appliances won't last the 20+ years you could get from an appliance made ... 20 years ago. All this cheap stuff helps mask the fact that the financial state of the US middle and lower classes has essentially stagnated over the last several years. That's an argument for another website...

The other reason why cheap stuff is made and sold is that in much of the world, they simply cannot afford to buy the top-line brands. And, their own labour costs are such that it does make economic sense for them to put in extra time fixing the cheap stuff.

World cruisers and travellers can attest that there's often a different of makes and models of things you see in developing countries that don't show up in the first world for one reason or another. Example; small, affordable (but polluting) 2-stroke motorbikes are legion in the developing world, but not allowed into countries with stricter air-pollution regulations. Boat motors, generators, pumps, etc etc - same deal. Even here though, there's awareness of what lasts and what doesn't, and the better brands are coveted.

This is why the Honda O/B on your dink is a source of great attraction

Someone told me that those chinese motor scooters were the fastest growing business in the world,I dont really know what that means ,but he said it...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

Someone told me that those chinese motor scooters were the fastest growing business in the world,I dont really know what that means ,but he said it...

This someone might have been referring to those electric scooter 'bikes' which have certainly become widespread.