Bio fuel called Diesel

[capn_billl]

Once the transesterifation process is complete there is very little difference in the molecules.

unfiltered glycerin in vegetable oils is likely the cause of poorer results with biodiesel, and would depend on quality.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by thinwater

A number of things:

• Biodiesel is defined in commerce and by ASTM D6751. It is the methyl ester of a fatty acid. If people blend oils dirrectly with diesel, that is... something else, but not biodiesel.
• Diesel does not solidify, it gels, as the wax precipitates. Just nomenclature, I know, but If I called your mainsheet "that white rope" you'd groan.
• The gel point of biodiesel depends on both the base diesel and what oil is used to make it. Chicken fat and beef tallow are cheap but gel early. Corn oil is in the middle. Rape seed, soy bean, and olive oil, considerably colder.
• Note that ASTM D4751 does not specify the cloud point, only "report." This needs to be set by local regulators to suit the climate. But yeah, below freezing it's an issue.

I've done some lab work on bug growth in diesel and biodiesel (I was on the virgin side) and it seemed that bio was different, but not actually much worse. Keep it dry and use a biocide and you should be fine either way. I actually wanted to see bad results, but that is not what we saw. Had it been provable, it is highly unlikely an ASTM standard would have been adopted.

thanks for posting results of your lab work.
Before I put old canola oil in my tank I left a jar of it mixed 50/50 with diesel sitting for a few months more to see if it seperated out but it grew nothing & didnt seperate. Wasn't surprising to me & its pretty humid where I live. As I said in earlier post I've left soy or canola oil in very damp conditions in the bush for years & it doesnt grow anything visible.
Bit off topic but did you do any lubricity testing?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Compass790

... Bit off topic but did you do any lubricity testing?

No, not my specialty.

[a64pilot]

I did a lot of work certifying an aircraft to burn “Bio Diesel”. specifically the Brazilian version.
To start with unless things have changed in the last three years, there is no definition of what Bio Diesel is, not even what it was made from, for instance it can be made from animal fat, which is a whole different thing than say Palm oil. Not having a set specific definition makes certification difficult.
However a real issue with BioDiesel is copper, copper makes chemical changes to it. look it up, its not hard to find.
Three years ago it was John Deere that had done the most scientific research on it, we relied very heavily in their work.

From a lubricity perspective it’s much better than ULSD, and for Common Rail motors B10 is excellent, Common Rails love the stuff. Specifically the injectors, they suffer the most from dry fuel. which ULSD is.

So get rid of any copper or bronze as it has copper in it, and treat the fuel with BioBor jf and it’s very unlikely you’ll ever notice any difference at all.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I did a lot of work certifying an aircraft to burn “Bio Diesel”. specifically the Brazilian version.
To start with unless things have changed in the last three years, there is no definition of what Bio Diesel is, not even what it was made from, for instance it can be made from animal fat, which is a whole different thing than say Palm oil. Not having a set specific definition makes certification difficult.
However a real issue with BioDiesel is copper, copper makes chemical changes to it. look it up, its not hard to find.
Three years ago it was John Deere that had done the most scientific research on it, we relied very heavily in their work.

From a lubricity perspective it’s much better than ULSD, and for Common Rail motors B10 is excellent, Common Rails love the stuff. Specifically the injectors, they suffer the most from dry fuel. which ULSD is.

So get rid of any copper or bronze as it has copper in it, and treat the fuel with BioBor jf and it’s very unlikely you’ll ever notice any difference at all.

Thanks for that info A64,
Bugger! I have some part copper in my fuel lines so will check that out.
Glad to hear that lubricity is improved.
Personally I'm not worried about biocide as done 6 years without it since I washed tank with petrol but can see why you would use it.

[KP44]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

My donkey seems ok with this stuff I am even thinking B10 (10%) as its cheaper and I can't see a big difference between 7-10%.

Be very wary of bio-diesel fuel. It is highly corrosive unless your specific engine is built and certified for bio-fuels.
It is my understanding that bio-fuels will corrode or degrade the gasket materials, such as head gaskets. Within a year or two the damage can be noticeable; even catastrophic.

Most newer gasoline outboards are now certified for 10% bio-fuel in gasoline. If you are replacing your diesel engine, it might be a good idea to find one that is certified for bio-fuels. Or one that is certified for 10 to 15% bio-fuel in diesel.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by KP44

Be very wary of bio-diesel fuel. It is highly corrosive unless your specific engine is built and certified for bio-fuels.
It is my understanding that bio-fuels will corrode or degrade the gasket materials, such as head gaskets. Within a year or two the damage can be noticeable; even catastrophic.

Most newer gasoline outboards are now certified for 10% bio-fuel in gasoline. If you are replacing your diesel engine, it might be a good idea to find one that is certified for bio-fuels. Or one that is certified for 10 to 15% bio-fuel in diesel.

I think the highlighted section sounds like a myth. Bio diesel has been around a few years now & I've never heard of it "corroding" head gaskets.
Suspect it would be all over the automotive news if it were true.
Sounds like something from ar..book that needs fact checking.
However no argument that manufacturer approval is good.

[Nicholson58]

Not much you can do about the source. It’s probably OK if it’s clean. We added a 1 micron fuel polisher so 100% of the fuel seen by the engine is clean. Bio has problems with becoming goopy or solid in cold temperatures. Don’t take the Bio to Alaska.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by KP44

Be very wary of bio-diesel fuel. It is highly corrosive unless your specific engine is built and certified for bio-fuels.
It is my understanding that bio-fuels will corrode or degrade the gasket materials, such as head gaskets. Within a year or two the damage can be noticeable; even catastrophic.

Most newer gasoline outboards are now certified for 10% bio-fuel in gasoline. If you are replacing your diesel engine, it might be a good idea to find one that is certified for bio-fuels. Or one that is certified for 10 to 15% bio-fuel in diesel.

Are you confusing bio-diesel in diesel engines with ethanol in petrol/gasoline engines by any chance?

[KP44]

Originally Posted by Compass790

I think the highlighted section sounds like a myth. Bio diesel has been around a few years now & I've never heard of it "corroding" head gaskets.
Suspect it would be all over the automotive news if it were true.
Sounds like something from ar..book that needs fact checking.
However no argument that manufacturer approval is good.

The manual for my new engine (fiat diesel) says no bio-fuel.

I observed a young couple start a new business, which included a new diesel delivery vehicle. They picked up used cooking oil from local restaurants and manufactured in into bio-diesel for their vehicle. Within a year, the vehicle was having engine problems. By the second year, the engine was a basket case.
The couple lost their business and made their vehicle into a "tiny house" that friends tow from place to place.

[flyingfin]

Originally Posted by Philipcataproa

Do not worry, there are too many negative comments. The bio fuel burns cleaner, it lubricates better. I have manufactured it and used it 100 pure with no apparent problems except that some oils harden at low temps. Go for it.

Many biodiesel fuels contain sugars and complex starches which when heated turn into nice carbon deposits. Ever burn sugar in a pan? Guess what it does to your piston rings!

[KP44]

Originally Posted by flyingfin

Many biodiesel fuels contain sugars and complex starches which when heated turn into nice carbon deposits. Ever burn sugar in a pan? Guess what it does to your piston rings!

Unless an engine is certified for bio-fuel, bio-diesel, of multi-fuels (that include bio-products), it should never be fed bio-fuels.
I have heard that bio is corrosive. Maybe that was about copper, as someone said.
Our entire fleet of cruising sailboats uses less fuel than a single cargo ship or cruise ship. It is great to do what we can for our environment. Make a real effort to pick up plastics and use as little fuel as possible. And always leave a clean wake and treat others as you want to be treated. But do not risk your engine.

[KP44]

Originally Posted by Compass790

Bio diesel has been around a few years now & I've never heard of it "corroding" head gaskets.
Suspect it would be all over the automotive news if it were true.

I appreciate your sincere comments, Compass790.
I have only heard "much more corrosive". Maybe that is about copper. The bio in petro (10% alcohol in gasoline) degrades gaskets in gasoline outboards and lawnmowers if they are not certified for petro10.

As for automotive news; I have not paid much attention since 1971 when the cheverolet Vega was the "car of the year". It's all about money and profits rather than "news".

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by KP44

The manual for my new engine (fiat diesel) says no bio-fuel.

I observed a young couple start a new business, which included a new diesel delivery vehicle. They picked up used cooking oil from local restaurants and manufactured in into bio-diesel for their vehicle. Within a year, the vehicle was having engine problems. By the second year, the engine was a basket case.
The couple lost their business and made their vehicle into a "tiny house" that friends tow from place to place.

Yes I can see homemade diesel from 100% old cooking oil could be a problem.
Thats a lot different from 5% biodiesel that you get from a fuel dock or gas station that many trucking companies use at least here in NZ.
5 or 10% biodiesel what I was talking about, guess I should have been more specific.

No argument that you should follow the manufacturers instructions.


I freaked out a bit about the copper but that applies to pure mineral diesel as well. However on thinking on it further our vessel has had part copper fuel lines since 1980 AFAIK ( we've only had it 7 years )
They have caused no problem AFAIK but I'm not saying it couldnt.
I'm not rushing to remove the copper lines.


Thanks for posting an example of the problem.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Compass790

Yes I can see homemade diesel from 100% old cooking oil could be a problem.
Thats a lot different from 5% biodiesel that you get from a fuel dock or gas station that many trucking companies use at least here in NZ.
5 or 10% biodiesel what I was talking about, guess I should have been more specific.

No argument that you should follow the manufacturers instructions.


I freaked out a bit about the copper but that applies to pure mineral diesel as well. However on thinking on it further our vessel has had part copper fuel lines since 1980 AFAIK ( we've only had it 7 years )
They have caused no problem AFAIK but I'm not saying it couldnt.
I'm not rushing to remove the copper lines.


Thanks for posting an example of the problem.

My fuel lines are mostly copper, built mid 90's, only real problem that has ever reared it's head is asphaltenes in the fuel, nothing to do with the copper fuel lines.