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Old 20-05-2020, 17:05   #91
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
The computer printer market is almost a non-profit: they make their money on the ink not the printers. Diesel engines are the same, and have been for a very long time. Back in the 1970's Detroit Diesel Alison was a customer of mine, and they told me then that they were selling the engines at near cost and made their money on parts, specifically rebuild kits; they were not happy about the rise of Taiwanese sources of rebuild kits, to say the least. Basically, if you want to pay so little for a new engine they are going to need to make it up on parts. This is not my preference but it is the way things are.

A few years back I looked into availability of parts from Perkins for the Perkins (Shibauru) engines in the Volvo-Penta offerings to no avail. These engines are sold by Perkins to OEMs like V-P, generator mfgrs, and such - not retail - and they do not support direct retail sales of parts. Just the way it is. But as I have written before, it is the marinizing parts that are most often needing replacement and there is no workaround for those.

Greg


In general that might be true at first sight. However that needs a little deeper digging as many of those big brands where manufacturing OEM parts in China and the like and were making their profits off the records.
But then this definitely can not be said for the marine industry where mark ups of 100-200% is common practice with no limits on the upside.
That goes on top and does not take under account the huge mark ups using parts from countries of low labor costs.

There is no excuse for the abuse. You want a marine sticker You gotta pay the marimafia even so itīs the same parts used for other industries at a much lower price.
This whole BS is based on licence agreements and miss leading parts numbers and identification procedures.
The thing gets even worse when oficial distributors are using after market manufacturers and charging You for OEM parts. In legal terms that is called fraud.
Does it happen ?
Of course they are always the first ones bashing Amazon and Ebay. YeYe, and when You look closer itīs a quality cert from an OEM approved supplier Made in China. What a hoax

Well, letīs stop it right here because that is another can of worms.

I am more knowledgeable on the Mitsubishi story but digging I have seen the Perkins-Shibaura ghost in the distance. Haha YeYe, the Swedish Boys at their best. I like the Mitsubishi industrial engines. Parts everywhere and almost anybody can fix them. Itīs not only the money. Itīs also all the options where ever You go. There is always some agriculture and construction industry. Given the choice I prefer Mitsubishi to Kubota ... more options.....well. maybe I am wrong
.
The better engine ..... Yanmar, Kubota, Perkins, Mitsubishi ?
I estimate that all industrial engines in that class/size should get to 4000 hours if well maintained.


>>> it is the marinizing parts that are most often needing replacement and there is no work around for those.

Of course there is. You have to identify the suppliers of those brands that are marinizing. !!!! AND !!! often they are NOT only selling to the marine industry.
And more often everyday those suppliers have even competition from the after market suppliers. That means that OEM parts manufactured in China get competition from other Chinese companies. Of course there are distributors in the USA and in the EC. Who else would have the money to buy their products ?
But there are also manufacturers for after market parts in the USA and the EC. They are struggling and most of them are very happy for Your business. Just imagine, when selling larger numbers to those marinizers they always live under the constant thread that those will take their business to China. They make more money with You because they know the marked value and they know the OEM price. Usually thatīs a +50% off the OEM price.

Of course digging deeper is a lot of work and there are no FREE BEES.

Well, sometimes You get lucky and can find one on CF
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Old 20-05-2020, 17:45   #92
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Hang on, I thought your old engine was too expensive to rebuild, needed too many parts etc?

But now it is complete spare part package?

Clearly I missed something upthread - which is becoming my new normal
It's a complicated death by 1000 cuts scenario. The engine, ignoring some rusty looking but functional internal components, has a scored crankshaft and scored bore. To rebuild, make good the issues from the dodgiest of dodgiest "professional" installs I've ever seen and to upgrade to a basic 120A charging system for DC-DC charging LFP batteries, I'm looking down the barrel of around 6 boat bucks all up.


I've struggling with the decision to spend 13 boat bucks on the Beta over the rebuild but now I've realised my spares gripe is almost totally solved having a spare engine available with, by my reckoning, at least 3 boat bucks of spares. To cut a long story short; to replace with another Sole is about 2 boat bucks more over rebuilding when the potential spares value is considered. To give the Oz Sole importer credit, he has come back this morning with a pretty keen price and has also chucked in some additional goodies so this is a hard one to pass up.

TBH, If we were still just weekending and traveling locally, I'd rebuild or even just throw the engine back together after cleaning all the gunk and polishing the journals and be done with it. I've no doubt it would continue to run happily for at least another couple of thousand hours.
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Old 20-05-2020, 18:26   #93
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by warrior 90 View Post
First Step... go to the web page I send, then go to SOLE and find the MODEL CROSS Ref. for Your engine

Nš2
Once You have the equivalent Mitsubishi engine model then You can find all parts Nš in the Mitsubishi parts list

Nš3
Once You have the Mitsuhbishi model Nš check around on this web page who else of all those Brands is using the same model as base engine.

Nš4
Get in contact with a distributor of Your choice in Your area

Nš 5
When ordering parts always use the engine model and never the engine production Nš.
All brands that use Mitsubishi base engines have licence agreements !!!
but they all use the same parts !!!
and they ALL ( agriculture and construction machines, ETC ) like to make money because they need to pay their bills !!!!

Nš6
For orders You need the Mitsubishi MODEL Nš and Mitsubishi Parts Nš
Donīt screw it up !!! Donīt EVER tell them about Your SOLE engine !!!

Nš 7
Invite the man for a discrete beer
Make a deal...get him to work for U off the record. He knows a$$ about this engine, the parts Nš and if You find the right one he will even fix it for U on Your boat.

Nš8
Every other mayor part besides the base engine like pumps, heat exchanger, starter, solenoids, alternator, ETC is most likely available on the open market and You can buy direct or from a distributor. You only need to find out what manufacturer and Model / Parts Nš was used. I am sure many people here on CF will be able to help You with that info.

Hey thanks!



I knew Vetus, Westerbeke and Sole use the Mitsubishi based engines along with Hyundai and Caterpillar mini excavators but I struggled to find any tractors used in Au that used them. Of course, I just discovered that Mahindra use these motors and (I think) these are a reasonably popular tractor around here. Should have figured that one out sooner considering the country of manufacture!



I do consider the S3L2 a good. After seeing what a mess the internals of my old one looked like, I couldn't believe how well it started and ran, even after it became obvious it had a serious problem.
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Old 20-05-2020, 18:54   #94
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
.......


I've struggling with the decision to spend 13 boat bucks on the Beta over the rebuild but now I've realised my spares gripe is almost totally solved having a spare engine available with, by my reckoning, at least 3 boat bucks of spares. To cut a long story short; to replace with another Sole is about 2 boat bucks more over rebuilding when the potential spares value is considered. To give the Oz Sole importer credit, he has come back this morning with a pretty keen price and has also chucked in some additional goodies so this is a hard one to pass up.
.......
What you say makes good sense!

After waking up this morning and giving more thought to this thread, it does seem smart to utilise the all the ancillary bits and bobs you will have if you stick with the Sole. And by now, you know it's potential failure points so forearmed is forewarned

Maybe the Oz importer is struggling to meet his sales target ATM and you can take advantage of the situation!

Short story -
Decades back I was in the market for a new Yanmar but the price was prohibitive for me at that time so I mentally put it on hold. Six months later (in January) I get a phone call from the local agent asking if I was still interested. I explained why I hadn't progressed the purchase and he immediately offered a 25% discount and boat buck of spares. I was a little suspicious and thought I might be getting a run-out model or some such. He explained the generosity more simply. The main customer base was the fishing industry and the fleet were all in port and the skippers on holiday but short of cash after Christmas etc so sales were always low. His manager was new in the position and wanted to make a good impression and the word was "keep the turnover up and don't worry too much about the profit margin". In essence the deal was only good for January / February period to make the turnover look good. I took advantage of it .
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Old 20-05-2020, 19:51   #95
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
What you say makes good sense!

After waking up this morning and giving more thought to this thread, it does seem smart to utilise the all the ancillary bits and bobs you will have if you stick with the Sole. And by now, you know it's potential failure points so forearmed is forewarned

Maybe the Oz importer is struggling to meet his sales target ATM and you can take advantage of the situation!

Short story -
Decades back I was in the market for a new Yanmar but the price was prohibitive for me at that time so I mentally put it on hold. Six months later (in January) I get a phone call from the local agent asking if I was still interested. I explained why I hadn't progressed the purchase and he immediately offered a 25% discount and boat buck of spares. I was a little suspicious and thought I might be getting a run-out model or some such. He explained the generosity more simply. The main customer base was the fishing industry and the fleet were all in port and the skippers on holiday but short of cash after Christmas etc so sales were always low. His manager was new in the position and wanted to make a good impression and the word was "keep the turnover up and don't worry too much about the profit margin". In essence the deal was only good for January / February period to make the turnover look good. I took advantage of it .

Yeah, I was hoping for a good discount from the Beta and/or Yanmar guys considering the current environment, but no offers. As I said previously, my heart is with the Beta, but I'm feeling I can justify the expense with the Sole option where I just couldn't quite get to that point with the others.
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Old 20-05-2020, 20:04   #96
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Yeah, I was hoping for a good discount from the Beta and/or Yanmar guys considering the current environment, but no offers. As I said previously, my heart is with the Beta, but I'm feeling I can justify the expense with the Sole option where I just couldn't quite get to that point with the others.
And of course, a new engine buyer rarely if ever wears out a new engine; the boat is usually sold well before that happens.

So it is unlikely you will ever need to pull down and rebuild whatever you buy now but you will likely need the various maritime parts.

You have some good arguments for remaining with a Sole with the $$$ being the best (IMO)!
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Old 20-05-2020, 21:13   #97
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Hey thanks!



I knew Vetus, Westerbeke and Sole use the Mitsubishi based engines along with Hyundai and Caterpillar mini excavators but I struggled to find any tractors used in Au that used them. Of course, I just discovered that Mahindra use these motors and (I think) these are a reasonably popular tractor around here. Should have figured that one out sooner considering the country of manufacture!



I do consider the S3L2 a good. After seeing what a mess the internals of my old one looked like, I couldn't believe how well it started and ran, even after it became obvious it had a serious problem.
Yes , even Volvo used Mitsubishi

Yes, Mahindra is a good pond for fishing but do not disregard all the other options.

I assumed Your base engine is the Mod L3E 3 cyl-952 CC
But now You talk about the Mod S3L2 3 cyl-1318 CC

Donīt know Your application but of course that is a bigger and stronger beast but make double sure. I believe the S3L2 is also a newer Model but that also means less options for fishing. But there is also another little secrete. It seems to me they donīt have plans to adapt the L3E to the emission future in the EC and they wanna empty the shelfs. Newin the EC and in exchange for the old one 3500 US$ + shipping and I am sure that is not the last word. Sorry, canīt evaluate situation Au Land. If You rebuilt check the crank shaft... expensive in the EC 650 US$ +shipping. Also taking the engine out is mayor surgery. while doing just some work on the head is a lot less stress.

To continue on the subject of the Mod L3E.
Both engines rated for continuous speed @ 1500 and 3000 RPM in gen mode and variable speed for propulsion. Both engines will suit Your needs as far as application. So make a good calculation for Your true power needs.

Option I never checked in depth... complete rebuilt kit including pistons and cylinder liners for 600 US$. Might be interesting to check this lead in Your part of the world. Shipping time and cost would be more reasonable

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitsubishi-...kAAOSwyApcHKmO

I also like Mitsubishi engines, very simple and reliable but of course with bad maintenance every engine goes to hell.

I've no doubt it would continue to run happily for at least another couple of thousand hours.[/QUOTE]

Well, then I have no doubt if You get to 2000 hours You will get a lot more.
Donīt rush. Take Your time. Keep on digging. I am sure You can get that project well below Your current calculations of 6 bricks with out compromising quality.
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Old 21-05-2020, 03:45   #98
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
It's a complicated death by 1000 cuts scenario. The engine, ignoring some rusty looking but functional internal components, has a scored crankshaft and scored bore. To rebuild, make good the issues from the dodgiest of dodgiest "professional" installs I've ever seen and to upgrade to a basic 120A charging system for DC-DC charging LFP batteries, I'm looking down the barrel of around 6 boat bucks all up.


I've struggling with the decision to spend 13 boat bucks on the Beta over the rebuild but now I've realised my spares gripe is almost totally solved having a spare engine available with, by my reckoning, at least 3 boat bucks of spares. To cut a long story short; to replace with another Sole is about 2 boat bucks more over rebuilding when the potential spares value is considered. To give the Oz Sole importer credit, he has come back this morning with a pretty keen price and has also chucked in some additional goodies so this is a hard one to pass up.

TBH, If we were still just weekending and traveling locally, I'd rebuild or even just throw the engine back together after cleaning all the gunk and polishing the journals and be done with it. I've no doubt it would continue to run happily for at least another couple of thousand hours.


Buy the sole. It is really a smart move with the spares you’ll have and drop-in nature of installation. Read morgans cloud on repower vs rebuild. That will solidify your decision. Death by 1000 cuts can continue after a rebuild...
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Old 21-05-2020, 07:09   #99
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

Such a decision should be taken based on .....

Nš1 the level of skills.
Nš2 existing tools and quality of infrastructure available at location
Nš3 price and access to parts
Nš4 budget considerations / time

As You can see there are lotīs of variables and this is always an individual case.
A smart $$$ move would be if he can use all the parts of the old engine. Thatīs where he gets the best value. I donīt think You wanna keep a complete engine for spares on board.
This way You are the one who decides what You need to buy new and how much $$$$ You wanna spend on spares.
Letīs not forget there are also other parts of the boat that need attention.
He also mentioned part of the project is alternator capacity for lithium batteries.
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Old 22-05-2020, 06:26   #100
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

Yanmar parts may be expensive but at least you can find them in the Windward Islands. My friend with a Volvo engine had to order everything (EVERYTHING) from St. Maarten or the USA. Beta engines and parts were nowhere to be seen. That may have changed since 2-3 years ago but I wouldnt get a Beta for that reason. Of course, if your cruising grounds are better supplied you might have a different opinion.
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Old 22-05-2020, 06:38   #101
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

In 2014 when we were looking at alternates to replace an unreliable, 6 year old Volvo, we liked Yanmar and a couple of Kubota based ones.
We bought Beta because they had the best reliability record on the SSCE equipment database, by far, and because we were able to talk directly with Beta`s engineering staff on some technical issues.
Yanmare failed to reply to multiple emails.
Yanmar insisted on a 75mm dia exhaust for the warranty to be valid, for all engien sizes up to about 100HP. The lack of engineering logic was disconcerting.
We had a 60 mm exhaust system that Beta was happy with.
We bought the Beta, and are VERY pleased after 6 years and 1700 hours, Arctic to Panama.
I kid people that it does not have a starter motor "because of clever Japanese electronics" It fools many because you never hear the starter. The engine starts as soon as I hit the button. We have never used the glow plugs, except to test them. we spend a season in the Arctic, and the Beta always started first bang even with ice bergs floating around us.
Beta tech support is great, especially the North Carolina guys and their forum at https://82353.activeboard.com/f24583...arine-engines/
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Old 22-05-2020, 06:45   #102
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

Think twice before you change your old style stuffing box! The new style shaft seals are not as reliable, and can sink your boat.
If you want a dry bilge, you can add a grease fitting on the stuffing box, below the packing, and pump in a bit of waterproof grease twice a year. Standard practice on commercial boats, here in the Salish Sea. If the stuffing box is hard to reach, the grease fitting can be mounted on copper pipe led to a convenient spot.
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Old 22-05-2020, 06:49   #103
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

True that Volvo and Yanmar dealers are all over the place.
However, we discovered to our cost that a Volvo sign does not equal decent parts stock. Many have to import most parts
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Old 22-05-2020, 06:50   #104
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

With me it's not a matter of which would I get, it's what I did get. last year my older Volvo on my Niagara 35 died an unnatural death. I did my research Volvo Beta and Yanmar were all considered. My research said all three were dependable high quality engines so I began thinking about other things. it seemed the parts were available for all three if repairs were eventually needed but Yanmar has such a large portion of the overall diesel market they seem to be more readily available. And then there was the price tag. Beta quoted me $3,000 more than Yanmar. My new Yanmar 3ym 30 AE is running beautifully aboard my Niagara 35 as we speak.
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Old 22-05-2020, 07:05   #105
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Me for Beta too.
That cool silver of Yanmars makes my heart go pitter-pat...
The problem with Yanmars is that EVERYTHING is painted silver: wires, connectors, nuts, screw slots, allen heads. And when that paint cracks, the poor steel underneath starts to rust right away.

Go BETA.
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