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Old 22-05-2020, 19:25   #136
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Well, not what I would have done but in my opinion the second best option in line.
As the Kubota the Mitsubishi base engine has also a lot of options for parts. Itīs a simple Drop In with no headaches and now You have a lot of spares and You have a lot more knowledge in Your tool box.
After all been said I hope You made a super deal.

But now comes the next part of Your project... 100 amp alternator for Lithium... Did I understand correct ?
Well, for that kind of alternator You should use a multi groove serpentine drive belt. Have You thought about it ?

I have. The new engine comes with a 120A alternator.
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Old 22-05-2020, 19:29   #137
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

Beta...if you can't find something like a Perkins M20 or the like.
Personally, I would look more into something like: https://electricyacht.com/product/qu...lectric-motor/


As far as electric aux propulsion goes, my experience has been with only the picnic boats we used to build, a converted Mystic 20, and a big catamaran with Diesel-electric 144V rig. The picnic boats and the Mystic were powered by a "Foosa" I think. Can't see any evidence of them on the market now, but really the package with motor controller etc... was about the same as the price of a long-block. We could motor that thing for about seven hours on the 8 6V batteries. Used a 4-bank 12v charger, each bridging two batteries in the bank. Added a 12V DC-DC (vs tapping out of the middle of the series 48V bank) for lights as well as to run the electric trailer winch that we rigged to raise and lower the mast (converted to a tabernacle due to low bridges). Mass was low down just like in the picnic boats, and the 30' boats used the same motor as the Mystic 20, and all of them still got to hull speed handily. Running aground is a lot less stressful when you don't have to worry about sucking mud into your raw water intake, and being able to engage a dead quiet motor for instant power should something go pear-shaped is just plain novel.
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Old 22-05-2020, 20:02   #138
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

IMO...

100hp, 25hp, 35hp...None of it matters. Horsepower is...not a precise thing even when you are doing comparison. Torque curves; those are real. A 50hp 4cylinder and a 50hp 2 cylinder are radically different.
If you put a 100hp engine in a boat with a max clearance 16" prop and a gearing and pitch that stays under the max feasible RPM for a displacement hull boat, and you put a 15hp in the same boat with a 16" aperture and appropriate gearing and pitch, you find that the 100hp can get you to hull speed slightly faster than the 15hp, and uses a lot more fuel and air. That is about the only effect.
A typical 4cyl marinized diesel may be rated for 35-60hp. These are "torqey" configurations, put out the same watt values, but hp values are all over the place. They are equal to a 12hp DC PMM that *doesn't* need 75lb of flywheel to show high torque values on a dynamo. Those are not the important bits.
1. What is my best prop diameter for my boat configuration?
2. How much noise can I handle?
3. Do I want fine control with idle shifting, or do I want the boat to slam forward when I shift?
4. Do I want a efficient and lower drag 2-blade, or a more insistent 3 blade?

5. What pitch/rpm values for my prop diameter are ideal?
6. What are the minimum torque curve values on the input/output RPM range I can use to get the boat to hull speed?
7. What engine provides those values, and not greater than 10% higher?


The last one is actually very important. YOU DO NOT WANT to "light load" a diesel. You want to operate it to its design maximum output. Doing otherwise leads to a variety of issues such as Wet Stacking and...well, basically wearing out your engine because it never reaches full operating temps/tolerances everywhere it needs to. You don't want to "take it easy" on a diesel engine. People getting big alternators and running them at anchor should consider adding an autogen (and running an HVAC while they charge their batteries!) Running a diesel at 1800rpm for hours to do turn a 120 amp alternator at max output and put out ~ 1 kilowatt of actual draw (about 1.5hp) are kinda killing that big engine.

Having "reserve power" is also a false concept, because there are no hills to climb. Your prop sees the same water that has the same properties, and has the same traction and maximum power output no matter what. The only thing that can alter that is a CPP (controllable pitch propeller), and those are totally overkill for a sailboat.
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Old 22-05-2020, 21:04   #139
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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When it came time to switch out my old Yammy 3GMD, the Yanmar would have been the obvious choice but I went with a Beta 25 and I'm SO happy I did.

It's a sailboater's dream. Easy to work on, all the high-use items are within easy reach. The built-in oil change pump makes it worth it all by itself.

Look up Yanmar parts. For many, only YANMAR parts will fit. Is there a Yanmar dealer near you?

For many items, I go down to the local tractor shop and buy Kubota parts at a fraction of the cost. There's even a cross-reference chart for part numbers. Even if you get the part from Beta, it doesn't feel like you're getting scalped.

I belong to a smallish Yacht Club and as repowers come up, nearly EVERYONE opts for the Beta - even before the local dealer joined the club. I haven't heard a single complaint about the engine or the support.

I had a couple of minor glitches early on - coolant leak around the coolant cap and an oil pressure gauge/alarm that kept erroneously going off. They were right on it. Now coming up on 500 hours and couldn't be happier.
Only 500 hours, and already you've gone down to the local tractor shop to buy many parts, I'll stick to my yamnar I think.
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Old 23-05-2020, 01:18   #140
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

I have seen two Beta re-engined boats, both suffered very much with vibration. The Beta is a lighter engine with minimal flywheel, torsional and lateral vibration were much higher than the previous Volvos.
Check propshaft rotation...I think the Beta goes the other way, so you will need a new prop'. (maybe only on Volvo)
In terms of quality, i think that they are the same.
Neil
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Old 23-05-2020, 01:38   #141
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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IMO...
...................
Having "reserve power" is also a false concept, because there are no hills to climb. Your prop sees the same water that has the same properties, and has the same traction and maximum power output no matter what. The only thing that can alter that is a CPP (controllable pitch propeller), and those are totally overkill for a sailboat.
Seeing as the OP has now pulled the trigger on a replacement Sole engine, let's go off topic and have a closer look at the quoted statement.

Below hull speed values, the actual speed of the boat is dependant on the thrust available and the drag due to design and environmental conditions.

Said another way if you need X watts to do say five knots in a flat calm, you will need significantly more than X watts to do the same five knots bashing into 3+' sea with 20 knots on the nose. This is where "reserve power" comes into play.
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Old 23-05-2020, 02:24   #142
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

If it's helpful to you, I have seen Yanmar spares internationally at chanderleries, but not Betamarine.
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Old 23-05-2020, 02:36   #143
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Aethelwulffe View Post
Beta...if you can't find something like a Perkins M20 or the like.


Yes, re. this and my last comment, Perkins is even more widely available internationally than Yanmar.
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Old 23-05-2020, 05:44   #144
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

Hi. I just finished having the Yanmar 3YM30AE installed in my boat. I only has 5 hours on it but so far I am extremely please. It is very powerful, very quiet, and runs as smoothly as a Swiss watch. I like the fact that it is designed as a marine engine and is not a marinized version of a tractor engine.
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Old 23-05-2020, 07:07   #145
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Seeing as the OP has now pulled the trigger on a replacement Sole engine, let's go off topic and have a closer look at the quoted statement.

Below hull speed values, the actual speed of the boat is dependant on the thrust available and the drag due to design and environmental conditions.

Said another way if you need X watts to do say five knots in a flat calm, you will need significantly more than X watts to do the same five knots bashing into 3+' sea with 20 knots on the nose. This is where "reserve power" comes into play.
Yeah, off topic.

If you can turn the shaft at X rpm, that being the maximum rotation speed and pitch within the available prop diameter before ventilation or cavitation occurs (both electrolytically damaging and essentially just making bubbles) with an engine, having a larger engine hitting the same RPM does NOT help "bash through". You have the same thrust no matter what.
More engine allows more even gear ratios, thus allowing for a potentially higher RPM, but if you hit max useful shaft speed for a given prop with the bigger engine, being able to turn higher prop speeds doesn't really do anything more.
To wit, the larger engine can allow a bigger prop, which is a design alteration, but in general, most boats are usually at their maximum dimension already. You can add blades and pitch with your bigger engine, but you still hit the point where your hull block/prismatic coefficient says "no more". I think that with 20kts wind available in essentially a heavy chop, I would probably be sailing my ass off with double reef and having a great time. If I needed to make way in a canal to pull in, I wouldn't have the chop issue, and almost any engine would get me to the dock (cheaply).



Going into a significant heading sea (mere 3' seas while blowing 20kts seems like inland waters), your SOG may suffer, but the STW that the prop is looking at is the same. More likely your SOG suffers from you being in a current at that point. In real slamming seas, higher momentary torque can re-accelerate you a little faster, but that means that your engine never otherwise gets a workout. Fact remains you have put the engine in an application where it is forever light-loaded. It is a primary factor in applications where engine x lasts forever in application A, and is a constant problem in application B.

If you are maxed out on thrust for a prop, having more juice available behind it does nothing. If you are underpowered to begin with, you can improve to the point where you can finally bury your bow into a 12' head sea and drown yourself. In the meantime, you will have engine issues. SeaForce9, a horrible oversized idiotic sportfish-cum-cigarette boat company shifted from using V16's to V24's with a slight corresponding prop change. The sale point was "We Upped our Horsepower, so Up Yours!" It is a planing boat, and they managed to increase top speed in flat water by about 2kts, but in a storm condition they are still lucky to maintain 5kts safely...same as everyone else. In the meantime, folks were faulting the new engine for reliability (and none of them have *any* hours to speak of). Same motors seem to have no issues in locomotives, but are too large for "switcher" engines that idle for thousands of hours every year. It is just impossible to load the output even close to the engine output with the available shaft angle.


Of course, this also applies to situations where a boat is over-propped because someone wants to hit higher speeds with a lower engine RPM. Torque curves of your engine output are important. Another ++ for electric drives.
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Old 23-05-2020, 07:40   #146
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Only 500 hours, and already you've gone down to the local tractor shop to buy many parts, I'll stick to my yamnar I think.
No matter what, the engine you can trust to be there when you need (whatever its other attributes) is the only one that is good. Most engines are pretty good...in the right application. If your system works, then to hell with changing it!

-All the same, it is nice to know you have an old Perk or Westerbeke when your lift pump dies in Honduras! I just can't see having to deal with major fuel issues at sea with a common rail. I don't want a little engine sitting in the bilge that needs electricity and a microcontroller for the CP3 pump and common rail pressure control to work. If you have a lot of hours on your Yanmar, it probably isn't a common rail. That is a factor when buying new iron.
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Old 23-05-2020, 09:22   #147
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Supers0nic View Post
Hi. I just finished having the Yanmar 3YM30AE installed in my boat. I only has 5 hours on it but so far I am extremely please. It is very powerful, very quiet, and runs as smoothly as a Swiss watch. I like the fact that it is designed as a marine engine and is not a marinized version of a tractor engine.
The designed as a marine engine is more marketing than reality. One of their "marine" engines requires that you remove an engine mount to replace the raw water impeller. When asked at a boat show their rep could not say what was different in their design to make it a marine engine.

IMO, going with a "tractor" engine means far more engines were built and parts are available everywhere.
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Old 23-05-2020, 11:38   #148
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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The designed as a marine engine is more marketing than reality. One of their "marine" engines requires that you remove an engine mount to replace the raw water impeller. When asked at a boat show their rep could not say what was different in their design to make it a marine engine.

IMO, going with a "tractor" engine means far more engines were built and parts are available everywhere.
...and troubleshooting knowledge is also available everywhere.


Marinized. If you want an exclusively marine engine, it will run on steam.
Marine engine is a tractor engine block, properly called a "traction engine". Might be the same castings as something built for automotive, but everything else means it is designed for a constant, steady and heavy load. Automotive demands acceleration and low load coasting, AKA "light duty" engine. Tractor engine with brass freeze plugs, spark-proofed alternator, and of course exhaust risers and the like === boat motor. Often there is a difference in the oil pan as well as oil deflectors and sometimes the pump location when you have a zero angle output drive (old school), but a farm tractor, a boat and a generator are closer to each other than automotive. Gensets can be further refined for a single specific (1800 or 3600) rpm. Otherwise the same thing. Perkins 4107 vs 4108 and their rated HP variations is a good study in the whys and wherefores.
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Old 23-05-2020, 11:49   #149
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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... I don't want a little engine sitting in the bilge that needs electricity and a microcontroller for the CP3 pump and common rail pressure control to work. If you have a lot of hours on your Yanmar, it probably isn't a common rail. That is a factor when buying new iron.
Why? Electronics tend to be more reliable than mechanical items, and depending on the item both or neither can be fixed at the 'road side' so to speak. Where possible I would always take the advantages offered by electronic engine management and fuel injection.
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Old 23-05-2020, 12:20   #150
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Re: BetaMarine or Yanmar. Which would you choose?

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Why? Electronics tend to be more reliable than mechanical items, and depending on the item both or neither can be fixed at the 'road side' so to speak. Where possible I would always take the advantages offered by electronic engine management and fuel injection.
I have to disagree with that. Engine spaces are hot, high vibration environments with the possibility of oil or water contamination. Electronics are not good in that operating environment. On the other hand the mechanical components of a diesel engine are all pretty large and engineered for that environment.

The most "delicate" parts of a diesel engine are the injector pump and the injectors. That is why they usually have two fuel filters and a water separator to protect them.
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