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Old 28-11-2020, 14:51   #46
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

Hi. I have sailed extensively around the world over 70 years and have seen / heard about too many tragedies caused by petrol or gas in boats. I would never own a boat with petrol or gas motor. Diesel is the only safe option.
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Old 28-11-2020, 15:34   #47
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Yes, weaving back through the 40+ posts I suppose you did offer your anecdotal experience. I would note the article I linked addresses these concerns, including lack of main bearings. Seems like a knowledgeable source, but I don't know for sure. All I can tell you (anecdotally) is the diesel alternative - the Universal 5411 - is no great shakes. As others have said, there's more to the story than the oft-parroted "diesel good; gas bad."

Makes me understand why the Pardeys opted for rowing stakes instead of an engine.

Peter
The Good Old Baot article is interesting, but many of the opinions quoted there are from folks who sell A-4s and their equipment. Doesn't mean they are not so, but then when they disagree with folks with whom I consulted all those years ago (folks who were maintaining and repairing the many active A-4 boats in service then), I'm left wondering who is right.

At any rate, I'm not suggesting that anyone buy a yacht with an A-4 and then repower with a diesel, but rather that if there is a choice, the diesel powered one would be my choice.

I've never owned a 5411 so can't comment on your opinions of that engine. I did have a two cylinder raw water cooled BMW diesel and it was a pretty good engine. It did have the two cylinder shakes, and required acid washing the cooling system now and then, but we put >6000 hours on it over the 17 years we cruised in that boat and it was still running well when we sold her. And, by the way, my A-4 was raw water cooled too... but I'll agree that they were smooth and quiet compared to most any diesel.

One final point: the magazine article spent a lot of time arguing that if you had a petrol outboard for your dink, well then you had a petrol yacht with all the same worries as if it had an inboard petrol main engine. This is a poorly supported theory, for (at least in our case) we store the petrol tank (when not in use) in a lazarette that is vented and also sealed off from the bilge. Should the tank leak, the fuel does not go into the bilge, engine room or accommodation. With the petrol main, any leakage (like when the float valve in the carb sticks) goes directly to the bilge where it can accumulate.

Anyhow, you are entitled to your opinion, based on your observations and experiences. So am I...

Jim
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Old 28-11-2020, 15:46   #48
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

We actually don't disagree by much Jim. My only point is that the OP is looking at 30-ish foot sailboats in the $10k range, and in the US Midwest. That puts the choices firmly in the 1970s and 1980s. Universal (A4 and the 5411) dominated the market until yanmar came along, also with a single cylinder thumper diesel, then their more modern engines that cratered Universal.

Choices are which engine sucks less than the other one? Or wait until you find one that's been repowered? We're not taking sailing centers like Annapolis or San Francisco here.

My only objection on this thread is the drone of diesel good gas bad. All things being equal, I agree. But all things aren't equal - the diesel alternative, unless repowered, was junk. Topics like these deserve a bit of discussion based on the circumstances, not just the same repackaged answer.

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Old 28-11-2020, 16:21   #49
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

The A4 is a great little engine however any boat with one is now in the range of 40yrs old. and has had many inexperienced and apparently budget boaters palying with the systems. I have yet to see one that did not have scary electrical systems exposed to the exgine/fuel compartment includiing badly degraded solid core copper wire, automotive non-ignition protected battery chargers, non-ilated battery chargers. battery chargers mounted over batteriesdomestic fuse panels, non-existent or useless blower systems and a host of other issues. In fact almost every electrical deficiency I have ever seen could be found on almost every A-4 powered boat I've seen. These old boats are not for the novice. Are there exceptions, I'm sure there are, I just haven't seen one.
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Old 28-11-2020, 16:48   #50
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

it's interesting to see this thread still going on.....while I never had an A4 in any of my boats, I often sailed with a friend that did....the boat...I believe was a vintage Pearson 26. That little A4 always purred like a kitten...when it ran...but it often didn't for reason I never understood. That is close on 40 years ago now, and that engine was old even then.
In those days, diesel engines were available for boats, but they were massive engines, weighed a ton and cost a fortune, so deciding on an A4 was had it's proponents, especially for smaller boats.

You can't really compare an A4 with a modern day diesel....but 40 years ago, diesels were beasts, no ifs ands and buts about it.

But that was then and this is now. I can find no compelling reason to purchase a boat equipped with one.
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Old 28-11-2020, 18:48   #51
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

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Hi, I am in a quest to find our first boat. My criteria so far are 1) sufficiently stable for Lake Michigan crossing, 2) large enough for our family of 4 for daysails and hopefully week-long adventures, 3) not so big as to keep expenses down, 4) make/model that are sought-after and easy to sell, 4) inexpensive- looking to spend 5~10k.


Hi Gus


I finally sold my 70s boat for essentially $0 (it sold with the trailer for the value of the trailer alone) after buying it for essentially $3500 several years ago (net of the value of the trailer and the outboard that it came with). It is important to understand that the market is very thin for these boats. The spread between buying and selling prices is wide. You may be better off buying a newer boat, for more money up front, because it will sell higher and more quickly when you're done with it.



In the Upper Midwest, 70s boats in the ~25' range generally do not sell while 80s boats are still saleable.


Quote:
I have no experience with motors and don’t really know what to look for. In my mind an outboard would be ideal, but most of what I am finding have inboards. Either atomic 4 gas or diesel.

You will find that outboards are common on 25' and smaller sailboats and inboards are common on 30' and larger boats. In between those sizes, it depends. If you want a boat with an outboard, look at a smaller boat.



Quote:

I understand it all depends, but in general, should I favor diesel? Are these old atomic 4 gasoline reliable?

The thing to understand about the advice upthread is that it is based on newer diesels now used on larger boats, particularly the Yanmar, Universal, and Volvo Penta engines now in widespread use. These newer diesels are great, no two ways about it.


There are two problems when you go back more than about 25 years, with diesels. The first is that these engines were not, when new, the equal in terms of reliability or smoothness of today's engines. Farymann and other lesser brands were common. The second problem is that parts availability is poor and you may have to scrap an engine because you can't get service parts for it.



The point being that while in the abstract a diesel engine is better than an Atomic 4, it is not the case that the diesel engines you are likely to find on a 1970s boat that you purchase in the 25-30' range are any better than an Atomic 4. To be blunt, they're both pretty awful.


The very best you can do in the price range you're looking at is get something with an outboard. Replacing a failing inboard with a new engine will cost around $20,000. On a $5,000 boat it isn't worth it. Replacing a failing outboard with a new outboard will cost $2500 and you can sell the outboard separately if you end up scrapping the boat.
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Old 28-11-2020, 20:04   #52
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

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Hi Gus


I finally sold my 70s boat for essentially $0 (it sold with the trailer for the value of the trailer alone) after buying it for essentially $3500 several years ago (net of the value of the trailer and the outboard that it came with). It is important to understand that the market is very thin for these boats. The spread between buying and selling prices is wide. You may be better off buying a newer boat, for more money up front, because it will sell higher and more quickly when you're done with it.



In the Upper Midwest, 70s boats in the ~25' range generally do not sell while 80s boats are still saleable.





You will find that outboards are common on 25' and smaller sailboats and inboards are common on 30' and larger boats. In between those sizes, it depends. If you want a boat with an outboard, look at a smaller boat.






The thing to understand about the advice upthread is that it is based on newer diesels now used on larger boats, particularly the Yanmar, Universal, and Volvo Penta engines now in widespread use. These newer diesels are great, no two ways about it.


There are two problems when you go back more than about 25 years, with diesels. The first is that these engines were not, when new, the equal in terms of reliability or smoothness of today's engines. Farymann and other lesser brands were common. The second problem is that parts availability is poor and you may have to scrap an engine because you can't get service parts for it.



The point being that while in the abstract a diesel engine is better than an Atomic 4, it is not the case that the diesel engines you are likely to find on a 1970s boat that you purchase in the 25-30' range are any better than an Atomic 4. To be blunt, they're both pretty awful.


The very best you can do in the price range you're looking at is get something with an outboard. Replacing a failing inboard with a new engine will cost around $20,000. On a $5,000 boat it isn't worth it. Replacing a failing outboard with a new outboard will cost $2500 and you can sell the outboard separately if you end up scrapping the boat.


Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions!

After reading every single comment I think I will follow your advice and stick with a mid-80s boat, and a yanmar/volvo inboard diesel.

My search is still on

Thanks!
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Old 29-11-2020, 07:22   #53
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

Since there's been some discussion about the Universal 5411. I've owned this engine for almost 10 years so I can offer my observations:


Firstly the engine *is* a "tractor carcass." It's a marinized Kubota Z-500. My understanding is that Universal later switched to Mitsubishi blocks. But the one in my 1984 boat is very certainly a Kubota, and I presume anything in that era or earlier is as well.


I've been all over Lake Michigan in my Newport 27, and have had some very long motoring runs. The longest was 27 hours of motoring through dead calms from Muskegeon to Sturgeon Bay. Absolute reliability. And it sips fuel too.



The wiring harness that comes from the factory is really inadequate and gets worse over time as it corrodes. There are well written guides on the internet for replacing it. I did so a few years after buying the boat and it made the thing start like a new engine.


It is, indeed, a two-banger and it sounds like one. I've never seen that as a problem though. I've gotten complements about the sound as it lops over on idle at the dock.


It is also, indeed, raw water cooled. That may be a problem on the coasts but it's not at all on the great lakes.


Regarding new versus old diesels: My engine is 100% mechanical except for the starter and the alternator. It's got pintle injectors that never clog and is about the simplest thing that can exist and burn diesel fuel.


Would a new Volvo Penta with an ECU and ultra-high injector pressure be more reliable? I very much have my doubts. If I were to get a new Diesel engine the only thing I'd seriously consider would be a new 100% mechanical Kubota block, like a Betamarine.
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Old 29-11-2020, 08:31   #54
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

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Originally Posted by jordanbettis View Post
Since there's been some discussion about the Universal 5411. I've owned this engine for almost 10 years so I can offer my observations:


Firstly the engine *is* a "tractor carcass." It's a marinized Kubota Z-500. My understanding is that Universal later switched to Mitsubishi blocks. But the one in my 1984 boat is very certainly a Kubota, and I presume anything in that era or earlier is as well.


I've been all over Lake Michigan in my Newport 27, and have had some very long motoring runs. The longest was 27 hours of motoring through dead calms from Muskegeon to Sturgeon Bay. Absolute reliability. And it sips fuel too.



The wiring harness that comes from the factory is really inadequate and gets worse over time as it corrodes. There are well written guides on the internet for replacing it. I did so a few years after buying the boat and it made the thing start like a new engine.


It is, indeed, a two-banger and it sounds like one. I've never seen that as a problem though. I've gotten complements about the sound as it lops over on idle at the dock.


It is also, indeed, raw water cooled. That may be a problem on the coasts but it's not at all on the great lakes.


Regarding new versus old diesels: My engine is 100% mechanical except for the starter and the alternator. It's got pintle injectors that never clog and is about the simplest thing that can exist and burn diesel fuel.


Would a new Volvo Penta with an ECU and ultra-high injector pressure be more reliable? I very much have my doubts. If I were to get a new Diesel engine the only thing I'd seriously consider would be a new 100% mechanical Kubota block, like a Betamarine.
Ummm....this was actually rated at 8 hp and was used in some riding lawnmowers. I guess some might call that a "tractor," though doubtful with a straight face.

My Newport 28 had one of these engines and yes, I always managed to get it started. But it always felt a little like I might roll craps on any given turn of the ignition switch.

As someone a post two prior said, neither of these engines - A4 and the Universal 5411 - were anything to write home about, and the Universal may be a diesel but shares little in common with modern ones
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Old 29-11-2020, 08:52   #55
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

Your problem was almost certainly the wiring harness. Universal used undergauged untinned wires that all went through this trailer-style connector. Some people had that connector heat up so much that it melted.


I thought my starter was going bad, so I took it in to get tested. The guy told me "there's nothing wrong with this starter." I started thinking the worst, you know, bad compression or something. Then I found out about the wiring. I replaced the starting circuit with 4Ga tinned wire, and everything else with 10Ga tinned wire, and haven't had a problem since.


You do pretty much always have to give it some preheat. That's a difference between indirect injected pintles and direct injected high pressure nozzles. The former will always start easier with less or no preheat -- until they clog.


Regarding "tractor" versus "big lawnmower" -- what do you expect? It's a small engine for small tractors and small boats. You're not going to put a big block cummins in a 6000# sailboat! Point I was making is that it's a commercial diesel engine from one of the most well-regarded engine manufacturers on the planet. Parts availability is excellent, not that I've had to buy many.
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Old 29-11-2020, 09:01   #56
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

I've had two smaller Volvo's in previous boats....the MD7B (two cylinder and raw water cooled)) and the 2003 series (three cylinder, heat exchanger))..and both have left me a distaste for Volvo. I don't know what it is about them, but they have some "weird" features and spare parts requires you rob a bank first. Raw water cooling is going to require a lot of maintenance work from you, meaning dissembling the head from the block to clean the water passages, etc, so some mechanical proficiency from you is a bonus here.

I'm not alone in this view. Today, I simply would not buy any boat powered with a Volvo, I would simply walk away, regardless of how much I liked the boat.

Kubota diesels come in many guises and are the basis for many diesels, regardless of the name you see stamped on the engine.
Yanmar is the other diesel you'll most likely see in sailboats today.

Both Yanmar and Kubota have stellar reputations for reliability and performance.

You will be surprised, that despite being a sailboat, you will spend a lot of time under power, a lot more than you may think or anticipate, so having a reliable and efficient diesel inside your boat, will go a long way towards enjoyment of your boat.

This discussion may throw you off a bit, but mechanical propulsion for a sailboat, not only requires a reliable engine but also some proficiency from you, as they will require diligent maintenance, clean fuel and filters, belts, etc. You want that engine to start and run every time you hit the start button.

While, I'm at it, older boats often have a problem with the diesel fuel tank. Old fuel+ old tank = problem.
You will be well advised to have a knowledgeable surveyor/mechanic check all this out for you prior to plunking down any $$$ on a boat.

Regrettably, cheap boats are usually "cheap" for a reason, so don't get suckered in by a low price as you will pay dearly to fix someone else's problems or you will be stuck with the same problem.

Any boat at a marina will incur a monthly slip fee. That charge will appear on your bank statement every month, whether you use the boat or not. Same goes for boat insurance and most marina's these days require liability insurance.
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Old 29-11-2020, 09:14   #57
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

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Sounds, great. I will avoid gasoline inboards

Thanks everyone!
Well, that might be going a bit too far. As others have pointed out, if you're concerned about the risk associated with gasoline, use (or install and use) a bilge blower.

OTOH, if you spill diesel, you will live with the delightful odour for a long while; the smell of spilled gasoline is gone in a few minutes.

Connemara has a two-stroke saildrive (the OMC Zephyr) and while it has had a lot of issues, the gas aspect is a minor one.


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Old 29-11-2020, 12:47   #58
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

A small outboard...say 15 hp.... will push a smallish sailboat, but it's important the outboard has a " long" shaft or a " shaft extension" as you want the prop sufficiently deep in the water that it doesn't come out of the water as the boat pitches up and down..

some caveats.....the outboard hanging from your stern, presumably from a small bracket....preferably the type that allows you to jack the outboard up and out of the water when not in use...will hang close to the water, where spray, waves, etc, have an opportunity to get under the cowling...don't keep a small outboard hanging in the water, when not in use.

more importantly, a 15 hp outboard is going to consume about 1.5 gallons of fuel an hour.....so your typical 5 gallon tank will give you about a 3 hour run time.....
here's the issue...that tank will have special fittings attached to the end of the fuel delivery pipe enabling connection to the engine.
To run longer than 3 hours, means that tank needs to be filled from another 5 gallon container, and trust me on this, this is no easy task on a boat that is moving every which way.

Can all be done...sure.....
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Old 29-11-2020, 16:42   #59
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

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more importantly, a 15 hp outboard is going to consume about 1.5 gallons of fuel an hour.....so your typical 5 gallon tank will give you about a 3 hour run time.....

With a correctly geared and propped outboard (usually meaning those sold as "high thrust" possibly with an aftermarket prop), 8 HP will push a 26' boat to hull speed. I know this because I have an 8 HP outboard and a 26' boat.

I use six gallon tanks because they fit the space and are easy to carry. At WOT (wide open throttle) I burn around 0.75-0.8 gallons per hour, and at typical cruising speed burn around 0.6 GPH. A six gallon tank gives me approximately 10 hours of cruising time.

I have two identical tanks and can therefore carry 12 gallons when I anticipate extensive motoring between refuelling opportunities. Having two identical tanks also allows me to fill one of them ashore and bring it to the boat, exchanging it for the one aboard that is partially empty.

I also have a 2.5 gallon safety can with an attached funnel that is useful for carrying gasoline to the boat to pour into the six gallon tank. These smaller cans are far more convenient for pouring than 5 gallon cans. I do have a 5 gallon safety can but do not ordinarily use it on the boat. By using the safety cans, it is possible to top up the six gallon tank without having to visit the fuel dock.

Nine and 12 gallon portable tanks, with suitable fittings for outboard motors, are readily available from chandleries, should a customary six gallon tank be insufficient.

A permanently installed fuel tank may be connected to an outboard motor. This arrangement is common on power boats that use larger outboards (anything over around 25 horsepower) so a sufficient amount of fuel can be carried.

I simply find that fuel logistics isn't a problem.
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Old 29-11-2020, 17:56   #60
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Re: Atomic 4 vs. diesel ?

It's different strokes for different folks....that is for sure...everyone can make their own decision on how they'd want to do things......some people like gas (petrol) and some prefer diesel.....I'm in the latter camp.
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