Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-02-2021, 02:55   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 4
Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

I am going to be looking for a sailboat engine. I have built my own LiFePo4 and it works fine. I do not think an electric engine is going to work for me since I need more range, but I like the idea of hybrid engines. I saw beta has some hybrid engines, but unfortunately I cannot find any information on how others experience with them.

https://betamarine.co.uk/he-hybrid-propulsion/

It looks like beta 60 works for me and I like the output I can get from regeneration of it plus its alternators.

I would be looking into other options as well if there is anything better.

Any information would be appreciated.
mrez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 04:18   #2
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 16,008
Images: 14
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

Sadly, it doesn't look like sea going yachts have really taken to this idea, instead it seems the UK canal boat market is the main driving force. You could try contacting Hybrid Marine directly:

https://www.hybridmarine.co.uk/

I did see an alternative recently which was adding a generator and looked simpler, I will see if I can find it.

Pete
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 04:44   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 4
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

I will contact them, but I was hoping to find other sailors experience first before talking with marketing people. It is kinda strange to me why this idea is not getting more traction. It looks like a very good compromise. I can without any problem do DIY lithium battery which gives me enough to maneuver in marinas with the electric engine.
mrez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 04:48   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Nice, France
Boat: Hunter Marine 38
Posts: 1,187
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

"Sadly, it doesn't look like sea going yachts have really taken to this idea, ......."

Leo the boatbuilder restoring (rebuilding?) Tally Ho is looking into the hybrid Beta engine as power source for the restored Tally Ho. There is a video about the engine.
I do not know since when the hybrid Beta is on the market, but I think it is quite recently.
sailormed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 05:59   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 4
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

I found the video. That channel is a big can of worms for me. He is working on an amazing project.

Unfortunately he has not done it yet.
mrez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 08:02   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,922
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrez View Post
It is kinda strange to me why this idea is not getting more traction. It looks like a very good compromise. I can without any problem do DIY lithium battery which gives me enough to maneuver in marinas with the electric engine.
Hybrid doesn't really line up well with typical cruising boats power needs.

It works great in cars because they go from zero demand at a stop light to high demand accelerating, followed quickly by low demand approaching the next stop light...and so on. Hybrids are great at smoothing out power demand vs power production.

For cruising sailboats, you wind up with a few scenarios:
- Day cruiser who mostly goes out for day sails. Pure electric can work fine as you just need enough to get in and out of the marina and you can recharge from shore power. But annual fuel usage just getting in and out of a marina is negligible to begin with so not much point in adding the cost & complication of a hybrid.
- Coastal cruisers. If conditions are good, they may sail...in which case the motor type doesn't matter. If conditions are not good for sail, most will crank up the motor and put in 20-50miles. But once you get up to speed, power demand tends to fairly steady, so they hybrid doesn't get to do it's power smoothing trick. If not carefully designed, it can actually reduce efficiency...at best it will be roughly the same efficiency.
- Ocean crossing cruisers. These are really a tiny percentage of cruising boats. Even more so, when you consider new boat purchases. They largely operate as coastal cruisers with occasional long crossings. During the crossings, they almost exclusively sail.

So the question is, who are you marketing the hybrid drives to and how much will they benefit?

A more viable approach is a pure electric with a small generator backup allowing for a moderate range under battery. Example:
- On our 34ft catamaran with 25hp outboard, we were around 10kw to maintain 6.5kt cruise speed.
- As coastal cruisers, a 50mile day was a long day. Usually, we were around 20-40miles.

So a 20kw electric outboard (roughly equal to 25hp and already available...check elco) is a simple bolt on power train. Under typical conditions, it would only use 10kw but you can put out the full amount if you need it, so we aren't sacrificing capability.
- A 45kwh battery bank (about half the size of a tesla) would give 4hr at cruise speed with a 5kwh cushion. Resulting in about a 28 mile range under battery alone.
- Add a 5kw generator for periods of higher demand (which is often done for house loads anyway).
- Battery alone, would likely cover 2/3 of our travel days with shore power recharging the batteries.
- On longer travel days, we could run the generator which would allow up to 8hr at cruise speed (40wkh battery bank plus 8hr*5kw = 40kwh from generator). In a pinch we could continue at reduced speed (probably 5.0-5.5kt) using purely the generator output but based on our experience that would have been very rare.
- If we aren't pushing the drivetrain for range, the battery bank could be diverted to house loads. 12hr at 1.5kw at 50% duty cycle is 9kwh, which is viable for running the aircon overnight without the generator running. So if you are just doing a short run to an anchorage for the evening, you could avoid running the generator but still enjoy aircon.

This would be more expensive compared to just a standard outboard with a small built in generator but not by a huge amount (particularly for a new boat). Once set up, should be a very nice system that can get most miles on electricity from shore power but hit 98% of the capability of a pure ICE propulsion system.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 09:55   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 41
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

The fundamental working mode is to provide a way to RECHARGE the batteries by adding more load to the diesel engine to optimize the fuel use of the diesel. Then once the batteries are charged the energy stored can be used to drive a small motor efficiently. This can eliminate the need for a separate generator reducing complexity and cost. See the Integrel system also. https://integrelsolutions.com/
kirklkjb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 12:52   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 400
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrez View Post
I am going to be looking for a sailboat engine. I have built my own LiFePo4 and it works fine. I do not think an electric engine is going to work for me since I need more range, but I like the idea of hybrid engines. I saw beta has some hybrid engines, but unfortunately I cannot find any information on how others experience with them.

https://betamarine.co.uk/he-hybrid-propulsion/

It looks like beta 60 works for me and I like the output I can get from regeneration of it plus its alternators.

I would be looking into other options as well if there is anything better.

Any information would be appreciated.
In theory parallel hybrid seems to make sense. I don't know why it has not caught on. It is not like Yanmar, Volvo, etc. and the big production builders are not aware of the idea. Parallel hybrid propulsion has been used on other types vessels a lot but not much on cruising sail boats. The obvious, guesses are the extra cost does not justify the benefit for most and / or technical issues. A technical issue could be the optimum size prop for a diesel engine is a lot different than optimal for an electric motor.

A manufacturer that makes a parallel hybrid for aux power is Stehr Motors(see link). Marine References - Steyr Motors
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 13:55   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,922
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirklkjb View Post
The fundamental working mode is to provide a way to RECHARGE the batteries by adding more load to the diesel engine to optimize the fuel use of the diesel. Then once the batteries are charged the energy stored can be used to drive a small motor efficiently. This can eliminate the need for a separate generator reducing complexity and cost. See the Integrel system also. https://integrelsolutions.com/
The idea may be sound in theory but in practice....unless you significantly oversize the propulsion motor, small diesels in cruising boats are already pretty darn close to peak efficiency at normal cruising speeds.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2021, 19:56   #10
Registered User
 
Oceanride007's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Up Qld Coast, near Yeppoon.
Boat: Passport 41, Custom Perry in steel.
Posts: 555
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

I visited Beta at Gloucester 18 months ago, they had such hybrid engines on the floor, destined for Narrow Boats (UK Canal boats) I believe some places do have charge stations, and apparently silent mode is required some places. Configuration was electric motor bolted on to Transmission PTO fashion. it was described to me that you could charge up the propulsion batteries to reduce duty cycle of Engine, of course this does not lead much to fuel efficiency, but you could hear the cows.


I did think this would be of advantage to owners with lots of Solar Panels, but then sail boat people mostly want to motor round greater than 6 knots, think canal boates more sedate. But am sure that if some sail boat owners moderate there speed need, spend more money on light weather sails, this technical innovation could be a goer.
__________________
Oceanrider.
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
Oceanride007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2021, 08:49   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 4
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

Thank you very much all for your responses. Now that I did some napkin calculation I can see that for my one-week sailing times (I live in Stockholm) I would not benefit much from this hybrid engines. One reason is I need to account on the weight of the extra battery I need to put on for that engine to be useful. Also, I mainly go to sail if I think there is a weather for it otherwise I kayak.

Also, the price is something one needs to consider as there are other areas which that money can improve light wind sailing experience.

Thank you for taking this idea out of my mind.
mrez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2021, 19:00   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Media, PA
Boat: Norseboat 17.5
Posts: 30
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

I'm still interested in the Beta hybrid option, for the following purpose: a 38-40' motorsailer with five 200W solar panels. Lithium battery bank.

Goal is for

1: energy independence utilizing the generator function of the electric motor powered by the diesel supplemented by solar power
2: improved efficiency of the diesel engine at low and modest speeds by adding generator loads
3. motorsailing using the electric motor to quietly improve sailing performance
4. Quiet docking and mooring maneuvers
5. Elimination of a stand alone genset
6. Redundancy of propulsion through a single shaft

My thought is that this application takes advantages of the hybrid's advantages, without underestimating its limitations.
phillysailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-04-2021, 05:37   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Seattle
Boat: Custom 38' Crabber
Posts: 27
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

1: energy independence utilizing the generator function of the electric motor powered by the diesel supplemented by solar power

~Running a generator on diesel is not independence.

2: improved efficiency of the diesel engine at low and modest speeds by adding generator loads

~ If it takes 20 hp to move your boat at cruise speed, you will use 20 hp of diesel to do so. A properly sized engine that pushes you at cruising speed at peak torque is the best efficiency you can get.

3. motor sailing using the electric motor to quietly improve sailing performance

~ But then you have to use the diesel engine to recharge.

4. Quiet docking and mooring maneuvers

~Absolutely true!

5. Elimination of a stand alone genset

~ Which is replaced with a belt run DC generator, a large battery bank and an inverter.

6. Redundancy of propulsion through a single shaft

~ Absolutely true but with a limited range.
roryboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-04-2021, 06:06   #14
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 32,117
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The idea may be sound in theory but in practice....unless you significantly oversize the propulsion motor, small diesels in cruising boats are already pretty darn close to peak efficiency at normal cruising speeds.
Especially with a variable pitch prop. One myth around hybrid propulsion is that generators get the diesel into a much better part of the fuel map, enough to make up for the double conversion losses plus some; if you study fuel maps you will see this is not the case at all. With variable pitch prop like Autoprop, diesel anyway is in its ideal zone of the fuel map over much of the rev range -- hybrid could never come close to that for efficiency.

Hybrid might make sense if you are able to eliminate a generator AND reduce the size of the main engine, using electrical power to assist the diesel for emergency power.

But hybrid with a diesel sized the same as you would use for mechanical propulsion doesn't make sense at all. Straight mechanical propulsion is much more efficient, and you save the complexity, weight, and cost of the hybrid gear. To replace the generator, you don't need to go all the way to hybrid -- just go Integral, or even cheaper -- jumbo alternator. It's not hard to generate a bunch of DC power off the main engine, and with modern charger/inverters, we don't care whether our power is AC or DC flavored.

Pure electric is the way to go for those boats which can plug in every night. Makes a lot of sense for that use case. Especially boats which can take an electric outboard. I'd love to have a pure electric lake boat, or day sailer.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-04-2021, 12:25   #15
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 32,117
Re: Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillysailor View Post
I'm still interested in the Beta hybrid option, for the following purpose: a 38-40' motorsailer with five 200W solar panels. Lithium battery bank.

Goal is for

1: energy independence utilizing the generator function of the electric motor powered by the diesel supplemented by solar power
2: improved efficiency of the diesel engine at low and modest speeds by adding generator loads
3. motorsailing using the electric motor to quietly improve sailing performance
4. Quiet docking and mooring maneuvers
5. Elimination of a stand alone genset
6. Redundancy of propulsion through a single shaft

My thought is that this application takes advantages of the hybrid's advantages, without underestimating its limitations.

I'll agree with Roryboy.


Advantages here are only quiet while doing range-limited motorsailing, and redundant propulsion.


There will be no gain of efficiency; probably efficiency will be worse.


You can eliminate the generator (a laudable goal) with big and well regulated and well-driven alternators. Or Integral, if you want to go first class.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
enc, engine

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DIY parallel hybrid - anyone done it? bluenomads Engines and Propulsion Systems 64 03-08-2021 17:10
Any Merit in Subdividing the Engine Subforum into Diesel / Gas and Electric / Hybrid? David_Old_Jersey Engines and Propulsion Systems 8 17-02-2020 07:41
Parallel hybrid drive ranchero76 Engines and Propulsion Systems 53 29-04-2016 11:49
parallel hybrid for propulsion Allio Engines and Propulsion Systems 30 15-07-2013 02:14
Four Solar Panels - Parallel , Series or Series-Parallel west coaster Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 76 07-07-2011 14:35

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.