Alternator for new Volvo engine?

[hellosailor]

I'd expect the stock alternator to "work" with lithium batteries, but any alternator with internal regulator, designed for FLA batteries, is going to do some nasty wrestling with lithiums. Hardly Volvo's fault on that.(G)

I've no idea what the warranty terms, or laws are down there. You've had no reply directly from Volvo?

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I'd expect the stock alternator to "work" with lithium batteries, but any alternator with internal regulator, designed for FLA batteries, is going to do some nasty wrestling with lithiums. Hardly Volvo's fault on that.(G)

I've no idea what the warranty terms, or laws are down there. You've had no reply directly from Volvo?

In my experience, while you're technically correct about the internally regulated stock alternator "working" with lithium batteries, the charge algorithm would be incorrect.....wrong voltages, wrong charge taper, and wrong float time. These are not hard to correct with a quality external regulator such as the MC-614. Also, alternator temperature sensing is a must. You want a regulator which will incrementally adjust the alternator output based on sensed heat, not just turn off and on. The stock alternator MAY have temp sensing (I'm not positive) but I'm guessing it will just be an on/off protective protocol. So, while technically the stock regulator "works", I see it as just a question of which will burn up first, the stock alternator, due to the continuous demand of the lithium batts, or the $8000 battery bank, due to improper charging algorithm.

I'm American, by the way, now living in Oz, and the new boat will be American registered, though built in France. Not sure whose warranty regs we'd fall under. But bottom line is, I'd like not to start life with a new boat wondering who's going to pay for it WHEN the system fails, but rather to feel that we've got a system which isn't inherently rigged to fail from the get go.

So at this point to power the new boat with lithium batts and a Volvo engine is a bit of a Catch 22.....I can go with stock, 115A internally regulated alternator to charge the house batt, anticipating a warranty claim down the road. Or, I can replace or supplement with a Mastervolt 120A externally regulated, robust alternator, (using VOLVO PARTS !!!) which I feel quite certain will work, with the understanding that I'll void the engine warranty.....hardly a reasonable choice.

Still no answer from Volvo on how to resolve what should be a fairly common, simple request.

[boom23]

I found this article an interesting read. You could use a second 'plain' Volvo internally regulated alternator to charge Lithium batteries.

Here is the portion that may be of use to you:

The last way shown below is the most hi tech (and the most expensive) It was designed for use with the type of smart alternators and dynamos used on vehicles such as the Sprinter Van and Euro Van where the output voltage can vary dramatically. To avoid interfering with the vehicles electronics, which might cause warranty issues, the buck boost converter can be programmed to use its built in vibration sensor to only operate when the engine is running. The output produced by the converter can be regulated to suit the requirements of the Lithium batteries it can prevent excessive load on the alternator by limiting how much charge is available for the Lithium battery. This sophisticated device is a clever workaround to all kinds of difficult problems that can be encountered when making modifications to these vehicles. The wiring diagram looks like this:

Buck Boost DC DC Converter

[Adrian Chen]

Originally Posted by svbravo

In my experience, while you're technically correct about the internally regulated stock alternator "working" with lithium batteries, the charge algorithm would be incorrect.....wrong voltages, wrong charge taper, and wrong float time. These are not hard to correct with a quality external regulator such as the MC-614. Also, alternator temperature sensing is a must. You want a regulator which will incrementally adjust the alternator output based on sensed heat, not just turn off and on. The stock alternator MAY have temp sensing (I'm not positive) but I'm guessing it will just be an on/off protective protocol. So, while technically the stock regulator "works", I see it as just a question of which will burn up first, the stock alternator, due to the continuous demand of the lithium batts, or the $8000 battery bank, due to improper charging algorithm.

I'm American, by the way, now living in Oz, and the new boat will be American registered, though built in France. Not sure whose warranty regs we'd fall under. But bottom line is, I'd like not to start life with a new boat wondering who's going to pay for it WHEN the system fails, but rather to feel that we've got a system which isn't inherently rigged to fail from the get go.

So at this point to power the new boat with lithium batts and a Volvo engine is a bit of a Catch 22.....I can go with stock, 115A internally regulated alternator to charge the house batt, anticipating a warranty claim down the road. Or, I can replace or supplement with a Mastervolt 120A externally regulated, robust alternator, (using VOLVO PARTS !!!) which I feel quite certain will work, with the understanding that I'll void the engine warranty.....hardly a reasonable choice.

Still no answer from Volvo on how to resolve what should be a fairly common, simple request.

Heres a link to the MV booklet on brackets, it contains a Volvo statement, which infers there has been colaboration between MV and VP.

http://www.mvs.se/wp-content/uploads...gsbrackets.pdf

It lists the d2 series up to 24v/110 and d3 up to 24v/130.

Given the extra alt will not interface with the motors black box electrics, and it appears to be approved by Volvo via Mastervolt I can see only clarity over warranty concerns being an issue.

Perhaps if you contact MV they will be more forthcoming with info on how the warranty/liability works, since it's in their interest to satisfy their customers concerns. IE do they have a document from VP?

Like Boom23 we have the second alt from MV option, the Yanmar 4JH80 motor was delivered direct from the UK distributor Barus already equipped as such.

Our builder was happy to say the warranty was not affected, and they have supplied this ""system""many times on their 55's so I may ask them for a written statement from Yanmar/MV and see if they can get one.

Good luck chasing them all down, it feels a bit like hearding cats!

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Adrian Chen

Heres a link to the MV booklet on brackets, it contains a Volvo statement, which infers there has been colaboration between MV and VP.

http://www.mvs.se/wp-content/uploads...gsbrackets.pdf

It lists the d2 series up to 24v/110 and d3 up to 24v/130.

Given the extra alt will not interface with the motors black box electrics, and it appears to be approved by Volvo via Mastervolt I can see only clarity over warranty concerns being an issue.

Perhaps if you contact MV they will be more forthcoming with info on how the warranty/liability works, since it's in their interest to satisfy their customers concerns. IE do they have a document from VP?

Like Boom23 we have the second alt from MV option, the Yanmar 4JH80 motor was delivered direct from the UK distributor Barus already equipped as such.

Our builder was happy to say the warranty was not affected, and they have supplied this ""system""many times on their 55's so I may ask them for a written statement from Yanmar/MV and see if they can get one.

Good luck chasing them all down, it feels a bit like hearding cats!

This document is a good find for the OP as I hope it lists his engine and the compatible bracket and alternator.

It's funny that the document does not mention the MasterVolt 24V/110A as an option for the Volvo D3-110 engine, which is what I have... It does not even list my engine, but I know that Amel would not sell a new boat with voided engine warranty. My boat comes standard with the Volvo D3-110 engine and two alternators.

[hellosailor]

Exactly the reasons why I say it will "work" with "some nasty wrestling".

As you are buying the boat in Oz from an Aussie dealer, the warranty rules and terms for that venue would bind all parties unless there are further quirks.

You could of course use lithium batteries with the expensive "drop in" integral BMS packs, so they'd sort of drop in. But if someone--either Volvo or the selling dealer--is placing your order and is going to deliver the boat with a conventional lithium bank, I would think it was legally their responsibility to deliver that with a properly matched and functioning charging system, unless they tried to weasel out of that by saying "The buyer said to install this, so we did, against our advice" which a judge might laugh at anyway.

If the dealer isn't co-operating, and Volvo isn't co-operating, then [bleep] them all. Buy the boat with the minimal stock electrics, and do the upgrade yourself, or have it done by a place that can and will do the mods properly.

In America, Volvo would have to *prove* that your mods killed their engine, they couldn't void the warranty even if you used boa constrictors instead of serpentine belts and whale oil instead of the recommended motor oil. Yes, they really are required to prove YOUR MODS KILLED IT before they can duck out.

Whether there are similar laws in Oz, I don't know. Maybe look for "Australian equivalent of Magnusson Moss Act" for a start, or find a local "consumer affairs" agency to ask.

[DougR]

Hello SVBravo,
Yesterday and today I spent a bit of time on the phone with former colleagues at VP of the Americas, both in the application engineering and the warranty departments, chatting about your situation. Their view of the questions raised here coincide with my own, that is, why would VP go to the trouble to develop an extra alternator system if it's use would void the factory warranty. That makes little sense. If the high output alternator which you install doesn't exceed the power of the Mastervolt 24/100, the warranty won't be affected. For your info, VPA is a wholy owned subsiderary of AB Volvo Penta, responsible for the sales and support of VP product in North and South America.

To reiterate what I said in an earlier post, your best course of action is to relocate the original alternator to the position above the injection pump using the factory bracket and wiring harness. This alternator will drive the engine start battery and instrumentation and you will avoid any voltage level incompatibilities with the engine alarm system. Then use the accessory engine mount/ alternator mount which was designed for the Mastervolt alternator to drive your high output externally controlled alternator.

A couple of points which I might make pertaining to other statements which were made in this thread:
- The D2-75 engine is a mechanically controlled diesel. It has a normal centrifigual governor connected to the helm with a mechanical throttle cable. The point which confuses many people is that the engine instrumentation is driven by data transmitted over a CAN bus. The instrumentation information is taken from the engine and converted by the MDI system into the SAE J1949 data stream which flows on the bus and drives the instruments.
- The comments which were made questioning the amount of power taken from the D2-75 engine on the Volvo Ocean Race boats are valid observations. The engines on the race boats are in fact standard production engines, but changes to the flexible engine mounts have been made to allow the mounts to survive the punishment dished out while racing around the world at 20+ Kts.
- The D2-55 and D2-75 engine have the ability to deliver quite a bit of power from the front of the crankshaft, but even they couldn't handle the amount of side load that would be imposed by twin high output alternators, water makers and hydraulic pumps. In the race boats there is a secondary shaft mounted on it's own bearings in front of the crankshaft, and driven thru a Centaflex coupling. All of the accessory drives come off this secondary shaft, allowing high power output in an axial direction without placing any side loads on the crankshaft. In a 65' race boat with almost zero furniture there is plenty of room to do this!

Hope this helps some,
DougR

[DougR]

Forgot to mention about your dealer in OZ....

Different VP dealers frequently handle different VP products, and all dealers might not be as fluent in "sailboat" as others...at least in the US it can be that way, so you should go on line to the VP dealer locator and find the VP importer/distributor for your location. I don't know the current corporate structure in Australia, but there used to be several importers for the country, and they were responsible for dealers in NSW or SA or QL. You need to find out who they are today and get in touch with them. Alternatively there might be a corporate VP office there now, but the distributor could tell you that.

DougR

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As you are buying the boat in Oz from an Aussie dealer, the warranty rules and terms for that venue would bind all parties unless there are further quirks.



Whether there are similar laws in Oz, I don't know. Maybe look for "Australian equivalent of Magnusson Moss Act" for a start, or find a local "consumer affairs" agency to ask.

We're actually Americans, just in Oz cruising on a 1 year visa (our 3rd one). We're buying the boat from the Boreal yard in France, they have no "dealers" anywhere else in the world. Though we may or may not ever live in the US again, I'm guessing that as Americans, with a US documented boat, the US warranty laws would apply if it ever came down to a claim. But that's not our style, hopefully it will never come down to that.

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by boom23

I found this article an interesting read. You could use a second 'plain' Volvo internally regulated alternator to charge Lithium batteries.

It is an interesting article, Boom23. While my preference would be to simply move the factory alternator to the "secondary" position, and go with a 2nd alternator in the primary for the house bank, it's good to know about the buck-boost gizmo approach in case we can't get VP to play ball. The rest of the boat electrical system, inc. lithium batteries and bms, is all Victron. Thanks for posting.

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by DougR

Yesterday and today I spent a bit of time on the phone with former colleagues at VP of the Americas, both in the application engineering and the warranty departments, chatting about your situation. Their view of the questions raised here coincide with my own, that is, why would VP go to the trouble to develop an extra alternator system if it's use would void the factory warranty. That makes little sense. If the high output alternator which you install doesn't exceed the power of the Mastervolt 24/100, the warranty won't be affected. For your info, VPA is a wholy owned subsiderary of AB Volvo Penta, responsible for the sales and support of VP product in North and South America.

To reiterate what I said in an earlier post, your best course of action is to relocate the original alternator to the position above the injection pump using the factory bracket and wiring harness. This alternator will drive the engine start battery and instrumentation and you will avoid any voltage level incompatibilities with the engine alarm system. Then use the accessory engine mount/ alternator mount which was designed for the Mastervolt alternator to drive your high output externally controlled alternator.
Hope this helps some,
DougR

Many thanks for this, DougR, I really appreciate your taking the time to reach out to your mates at VPA. We're all on the same page here on the best approach, and it's the one I'm pursuing with the builder, who, at this point, is working the issue with their French supplier. If this supplier continues to only allow 12v/60a secondary alternator, I'll go to VP directly. Supposed to hear this week. Thanks again!!!

[hellosailor]

bravo-
If you are contracting with a French yard, it is very possible that French law will govern, regardless of where you plan to title the boat. The actual place where you entered into contract (and if that's by email or mail, the courts still argue about venue) and the place where you actually take possession of the boat (is it being shipped FOB? or delivered by a US company under contract to the yard?) matter.
That you are US citizens, and plan to document the boat here in the US, would have no bearing on the laws governing the sales contract. You might want to consult an attorney to make sure you set up the sale in the way that will be most advantageous to you, if you are given any choices in the matter.

[svbravo]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

bravo-
If you are contracting with a French yard, it is very possible that French law will govern, regardless of where you plan to title the boat. The actual place where you entered into contract (and if that's by email or mail, the courts still argue about venue) and the place where you actually take possession of the boat (is it being shipped FOB? or delivered by a US company under contract to the yard?) matter.
That you are US citizens, and plan to document the boat here in the US, would have no bearing on the laws governing the sales contract. You might want to consult an attorney to make sure you set up the sale in the way that will be most advantageous to you, if you are given any choices in the matter.

Thanks for this. We are picking the boat up at the yard in France, and you're right, I checked, and according to the contract French law does govern warranty issues. We didn't get much choice in that.....you pick your battles.

I still hope this doesn't ever enter the warranty claim phase, thus the reason for putting so much effort into getting it right at the front end. And thanks again for your input!

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by svbravo

Is the D2-75 engine "electronic controlled"? It's not one of the newer common rail engines.

DougR answered this part: it is a traditional mechanically-controlled diesel, with an electronic interface for instruments and start/stop control. This is done through a black box on the engine, known as the MDI. It is possible to operate the engine without the MDI working: the starter solenoid can be energized with a jumper cable (easy to make a permanent bypass with a pushbutton). Of course it is a bad idea to operate without the instruments and the various warnings available but if the MDI fails while on passage this may be necessary to get into harbor.

Would a few tenths of a volt lower charging voltage output from the alternator into the batteries really damage the engine?

Good question, but it is really only the MDI at risk. There are some indications that a few tenths of a volt too high may cause MDI failure. The MDI is on its 6th version and many here have reported MDI failures, sometimes multiple failures, with all versions. Recently VP has started to suspect high voltage from smart regulator control to be one source of the problem (see other threads on MDI). Perhaps VP needs to come up with a 7th design, with a DC-DC buck-boost circuit for the power to the controller inside (not including the power switched by the internal relays). The failures of the earlier designs were a result of poor engineering, pure and simple; there really is no excuse for these problems.

Greg

[hellosailor]

I remember many years ago asking a professor about an amplifier design and he looked at me lie I was from Mars (not too far off) and said "Why would you want to design an amplifier? You can buy plenty of the, all professionally designed and integrated, from plenty of sources, for only a dollar or two." MANY years ago.

I'd be afraid to even dare asking if it was possible for Volvo or anyone else to design engine systems that could be damaged by anything except a gross regulator failure. Surely, the guts of the black box are coming from someone's off the shelf catalogue parts, which are already designed with protective components? Heck, even a 15 cent three-terminal regulator chip has "heroic" protection circuitry to shut it down until overloads go away.

You've really got to get frisky with Thor's hammer to damage most of this stuff, unless someone at Volvo let their nephew spec those pretty Lego blocks where real chips should have been.

Six iterations....sheesh.