Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-03-2023, 05:00   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 26
71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

Looking at an original Charlie Morgan 38 centerboarder that has been repowered with a beta 25. The owner insists that it is plenty of power, but at 16 tons it seems very low. I do plan on going to some places that have strong currents, so being seriously underpowered would be a concern.
jeffandlori is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 05:04   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Endeavour 32
Posts: 276
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

16T would be 32,000 pounds. The online specs show displacement at 16,000 pounds.

I’m 12,000# with ~18hp and do fine.
SY Harmony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 05:41   #3
Registered User
 
sailingharry's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,278
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

My 79 Sabre 34, 12,000 lbs, had a 27hp Volvo. 90% of the time, it was plenty. There were times with wind and waves where boat speed was holding well under 3kts. I consider it "just adequate."

My current Saga 43, 22,000 lbs, has a Yanmar 55hp. Coming out of the Cape Cod Canal this fall in wind against tide, we frequently came to a complete stop even with full throttle. But 90+% of the time, plenty. Again, adequate.

Your proposed boat, 38ft/16,000lb, is midway between my two. I suspect she would be appropriately powered with 35-45hp. I would think that with any significant head wind or seas, you will see boat speeds down in the 3-4 knot range.

Of course, the EP proponents and those that believe enough wind to stop the engine is more than enough to raise the sails would certainly endorse that engine or even smaller.

Note, this article says the most common factory plant was a 50 HP Perkins
https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai.../morgan-38-382
sailingharry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 10:59   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 26
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

Whoops yes, 16,000 lbs. I probably would have sail up in heavy wind/seas, it's really current that worries me.
jeffandlori is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 11:21   #5
Registered User
 
sailingharry's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,278
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffandlori View Post
Whoops yes, 16,000 lbs. I probably would have sail up in heavy wind/seas, it's really current that worries me.
Here are a few times I've had the engine on, in heavy headwinds/seas. Sure, sailing is still possible..
* We had my daughter in law aboard. It was choppy and blustery. She was seasick and uncomfortable beating to weather. You and I may find it more comfortable sailing, but convince a newbie about that!
* Coming out of the Cape Cod Canal. 2+ knots of current behind us. 20-30 on the nose. Square waves -- you'd have to see them to believe them. 5' seas, 40' crest-to-crest. Never seen anything like it. If not for the current with us, our SOG would have been negative. And the channel was maybe 1/4 mile wide. Sure, you could sail it, but it would have been even less fun.
* Down wind in 30 gusting to 40. Took sail down a bit too late, and had passed the harbor entrance. Motoring back up wind with a SOG of 1-2 was slow.
* Crossing the Reversing Falls (St Johh, New Brunswick, Canada) 30 minutes before slack, making 8+ SOW and under 1 SOG. Could have waited 30 minutes, but evening was coming, we had 20 miles to our anchorage, and we really didn't want to wait.



Your use may vary. Your attitude may vary. Many folks are installing an electric drive that would have failed horribly in those scenarios. The Pardey's didn't have an engine at all. BUT...many sailors would find the engine in that boat limiting. If it fits your needs, that's all it needs to do.
sailingharry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 11:26   #6
Registered User
 
sailingharry's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,278
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffandlori View Post
Whoops yes, 16,000 lbs. I probably would have sail up in heavy wind/seas, it's really current that worries me.

Oh, if it's current that worries you, it's probably a non-issue. The Reversing Falls example was an exceptional outlier, and easily avoided. In flat-ish, moderate weather, you should have no problem making 5+ SOW, probably 6+. There are VERY few places where the current is more than that. You'll never go to Montreal (it's 1 mile upriver in a 6 kt river current), but again, that's an outlier. I have rarely been in currents much over 2-3 knots, and even with an engine capable of boat speeds over 8, I try really hard to avoid even 3 knot head-currents.
sailingharry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 11:38   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: States - Northeast
Boat: '86 MacGregor 25
Posts: 526
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

What kind of current are we talking? Go from a 25 to a 50 hp motor and your top speed in flat water goes from what, 6.5 knts to 7.2? Not nothing, but the hull speed is most of the limiting factor.

We had a Universal M25 rated at 21 hp on a Catalina 36 (13,500 lbs). Considering the age of the engine, I would guess 19 or 20 hp was more likely. Like above, I would call it just adequate. More would have been nice when making 2 knots against wind, waves, and current all at once.

We spent a little time in a tidal river where the current hit 3+ knts every cycle, and could be 6 knts with eddies in local areas where the river narrowed. I think all sailboats timed their ins/outs to avoid peak current unless they were already moored close to the mouth. You really need to be capable of 8+ knts to fight a 6 knt current.
wyb2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 13:18   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2022
Posts: 26
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

You make some good points. My dad and I got into a situation in the Carquinez strait a few years ago in his dana that sounds much like your Cape Cod canal scenario. There was no thought of putting up sails on that occasion, although nothing will alleviate the misery of a sea state like that anyway :-).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
Here are a few times I've had the engine on, in heavy headwinds/seas. Sure, sailing is still possible..
* We had my daughter in law aboard. It was choppy and blustery. She was seasick and uncomfortable beating to weather. You and I may find it more comfortable sailing, but convince a newbie about that!
* Coming out of the Cape Cod Canal. 2+ knots of current behind us. 20-30 on the nose. Square waves -- you'd have to see them to believe them. 5' seas, 40' crest-to-crest. Never seen anything like it. If not for the current with us, our SOG would have been negative. And the channel was maybe 1/4 mile wide. Sure, you could sail it, but it would have been even less fun.
* Down wind in 30 gusting to 40. Took sail down a bit too late, and had passed the harbor entrance. Motoring back up wind with a SOG of 1-2 was slow.
* Crossing the Reversing Falls (St Johh, New Brunswick, Canada) 30 minutes before slack, making 8+ SOW and under 1 SOG. Could have waited 30 minutes, but evening was coming, we had 20 miles to our anchorage, and we really didn't want to wait.



Your use may vary. Your attitude may vary. Many folks are installing an electric drive that would have failed horribly in those scenarios. The Pardey's didn't have an engine at all. BUT...many sailors would find the engine in that boat limiting. If it fits your needs, that's all it needs to do.
jeffandlori is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 13:34   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Boat: Swallowed the anchor
Posts: 976
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

For a very similar comparison, except you may have a bit more wetted area, I had a Westerly Corsair (15,500 lbs dry) with a Volvo 2030 (29 hp) and a 2-blade prop that was properly sized to allow the engine to just reach max rpm. I had absolutely no trouble at anytime even transiting Hell Gate against the current.

The key, I believe, is matching the prop correctly to the drive train. Don't leave any hp on the table by over-propping.
kenbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 13:41   #10
Registered User
 
sailingharry's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Sabre 34-1 (sold) and Saga 43
Posts: 2,278
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

The difference between 25 and 50 horsepower is not speed through the East River. Both of them will push you at hull speed, either with the current with you or against you. The difference is when winds and waves work against you and kill your speed through the water. Then the difference between the two engines is not a half a knot or a knot, but 2, 3 or even 4 knots.
sailingharry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 14:12   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Boat: Swallowed the anchor
Posts: 976
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingharry View Post
The difference between 25 and 50 horsepower is not speed through the East River. Both of them will push you at hull speed, either with the current with you or against you. The difference is when winds and waves work against you and kill your speed through the water. Then the difference between the two engines is not a half a knot or a knot, but 2, 3 or even 4 knots.
Don't disagree but the OP's concern was current and I believe the boat comparison was relevant.
kenbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2023, 14:18   #12
running down a dream
 
gonesail's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Florida
Boat: cape dory 30 MKII
Posts: 3,112
Images: 7
Send a message via Yahoo to gonesail
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

i've heard of the CM38 having perkins 4-108 in them. the 25 seems a bit anemic for an 8 ton boat especially in a current. i would have opted for at least a beta 30.
__________________
some of the best times of my life were spent on a boat. it just took a long time to realize it.
gonesail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2023, 11:40   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 203
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

I had a 25 HP Beta in my 18 ton North Sea Pilot ketch. It was powerful enough for even the most adverse conditions.
Chris Cringle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2023, 07:11   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Seattle
Boat: Custom 38' Crabber
Posts: 80
Re: 71 Morgan 38 with beta 25 - underpowered?

A Charlie Morgan 38. That's an easy push boat. The 25 HP engine will be enough for most of the time and get you to hull speed quite nicely. Until you get into adverse conditions and need more power. Then it wont. When you need all the power you can get, a 16" prop will work with up to around 35 HP max. At more than 16,000 lbs displacement, 30-35 hp would be considered enough engine for the boat.
roryboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
morgan, power

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bukh DV10 parts? Underpowered? Buddy_Y Engines and Propulsion Systems 16 25-05-2023 12:54
39' Hunter underpowered with a 29HP Yanmar? bellablue Monohull Sailboats 44 08-02-2021 07:18
Underpowered, which propeller to install? inquestof Monohull Sailboats 32 23-03-2017 03:53
Autoprop for an Underpowered Motorsailer ? PugtSounDav Propellers & Drive Systems 10 11-11-2011 11:17
Concern About Underpowered Windlass ? lawdawg Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 16 25-10-2010 10:32

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:05.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.