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Old 17-05-2022, 08:29   #1
MJF
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60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Hello everyone,

I am looking for advice on the engine/drive train of a custom build. The vessel is a rugged 60ft aluminium centreboard sail boat built for tropics and high latitude cruising.

Reliability is highest the priority.

Currently the spec is this:

Yanmar 4LV150
KMH50VA 2.47:1 gearbox
Brunton 4 blade Varifold
Spur rope cutter
Centaflex AGM-140 or Sigmadrive


Now, this engine is relatively high revving and has common rail injection.

I am unsure if this is the right fit for a 40T vessel at max load and if there aren't other non common rail but emission compliant engines out there. So far, I couldn't find anything.

I am looking advice and suggestions from experienced people, please.

Thanks and kind regards,

Manuel
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Old 17-05-2022, 09:36   #2
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

What is the displacement of the vessel in lbs or kilograms?
What is the waterline length of the vessel?
What is the maximum propeller diameter that can be fit under the vessel?
Where is the vessel located?
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Old 17-05-2022, 09:53   #3
MJF
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

LOA (hull) 18,34m
LWL 17,67m
target displacement lightship 32,36t
target displacement max load 40t

I don't know the maximum diameter, but it is a new build in the design phase, so there is some play.

The shaft is relatively long and has an 8 degree down angle.

The specced Autoprop is 24"x17"

It will be built in Europe but sail all over.
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Old 17-05-2022, 10:06   #4
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

look ther:
https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/4lv150/

110 hp at 2000 rpm, not bad right?

with quality diesel and an efficient filtration system, no problem with common rail ...

./.
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Old 17-05-2022, 12:40   #5
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

For expedition service, I'd look at the Kubota based engines by Beta or Nanni with mechanical injection. A lot depends on whether you need compliance with RCD or EPA emissions.

Nanni has the N4.115, and Beta has 105T or 115T
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Old 17-05-2022, 16:36   #6
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by bil56 View Post
look ther:
https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/4lv150/

110 hp at 2000 rpm, not bad right?

with quality diesel and an efficient filtration system, no problem with common rail ...

./.
That's 110HP @2000 only if you are so severely over-propped so that you can reach 2000RPM only at WOT (and will burn up your turbo engine due to inadequate cooling water flow). Properly propped for its max of 150HP @ max 3500RPM WOT, at 2000 you're generating about 35HP by the prop power curve.
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Old 17-05-2022, 17:41   #7
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Have you considered electric drive(s)? Quieter, not smelly. No massive fuel tanks with all the pumps, filtering etc. No gearbox. No dangerous smelly, exhaust gases ever entering your boat. Probably no salt water heat exchangers needed (minimising hull fittings). No possibility of over heating. The possibility of power regeneration from the spinning prop. when under sail?

Now that electric cars are all the rage, large battery banks should be more readily available and the technology is now stable and reliable.

While at the construction stage the design work could be aimed at maximising solar panel installation (collection area-wise, shade provision etc.).
Having lived in the tropics for most of my life, I can assure you that good shade is essential. PV panels can do this for you.
I would expect an electric installation may well be lighter as well, allowing possibly for a better ballast to displacement ratio.

My expectation is because of rising fossil fuel costs and local legislation, that electrically propelled boats will soon start appearing from the production companies.

Considering that most boats spend most of their time in marinas, then purchasing electric power has got to be much cheaper than buying diesel.

At this stage diesel propulsion may seem initially to be preferable cost wise, but any one who tells you diesel engines are "install and forget" is telling very big fibs.

Having a large battery bank also means you can run not just refrigeration but also cooking, winches and possibly A/C off them as well.

On a larger vessel such as yours, you may also consider an "off the shelf" dedicated gen set for emergencies.
I am sure you are aware of the special electrical corrosion issues involved with aluminium hulls.

Being in Europe, I am sure there are many progressive electric drive companies.

My final observation is that it is rare to see anyone building their own boats in todays market place. There are just so many excellent boats on the second hand market going for a song - and a few years work.
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Old 18-05-2022, 05:19   #8
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

[QUOTE It will be built in Europe but sail all over.[/QUOTE]

A rebuilt 150 hp engine that is normally asperated and with mechanical fuel injection may be the way to go. You will probably need 6 cylinder to get the HP with a lower RPM.

Look for rebuilt John Deere, or Iveco or possibly a Cummins. There are quality low pressure, low tech, simple marine engine designs the still have excellent parts availability and can be rebuilt to like new if you hire a decent shop to do the work.

Also, you may have better options if the vessel is built in EU and flagged outside the EU.
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Old 19-05-2022, 10:31   #9
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Can get non-common rail engines outside the US (and EU?) fairly easy, but getting them into country bit harder due to EPA restrictions.



I would stay away from common rail if going to outlying areas. Much harder to find someone who can work on them. Regular diesels can be worked on by most mechanics.



As far as the right power train, I would use a naval architect to spec it out based on boats parameters. Can also try larger prop shops. They are pretty experienced at real world applications for propulsion systems
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Old 20-05-2022, 02:34   #10
MJF
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by bil56 View Post
look ther:
https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/4lv150/

110 hp at 2000 rpm, not bad right?

with quality diesel and an efficient filtration system, no problem with common rail ...

./.
Hi, next to the normal double razor filtration between day tank and engine, we will have a very good fuel polishing system.
The problem is the quality fuel. Even with large fuel tanks and therefore long gaps between refuels, we can get contaminated fuel and have blocked common rail injection and the wrong time
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Old 20-05-2022, 02:35   #11
MJF
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
For expedition service, I'd look at the Kubota based engines by Beta or Nanni with mechanical injection. A lot depends on whether you need compliance with RCD or EPA emissions.

Nanni has the N4.115, and Beta has 105T or 115T
Hi Don,

I would love a Kubota based engine, but sadly they are not compliant with emission regulations for this purpose.
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Old 20-05-2022, 02:39   #12
MJF
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete View Post
That's 110HP @2000 only if you are so severely over-propped so that you can reach 2000RPM only at WOT (and will burn up your turbo engine due to inadequate cooling water flow). Properly propped for its max of 150HP @ max 3500RPM WOT, at 2000 you're generating about 35HP by the prop power curve.
That's not a lot :/

I understand it is desirable to have a relatively low revving engine paired with a big and slow turning prop to have most efficient thrust in all sea states.

I am looking for advice on an ideal setup under the current emission regulation restrictions.

What would you do if you were in remote places for extended periods of time and wouldn't have access to good and schooled mechanics?
How would one design the engine setup for maximum reliability?
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Old 20-05-2022, 02:52   #13
MJF
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by billgewater View Post
Have you considered electric drive(s)? Quieter, not smelly. No massive fuel tanks with all the pumps, filtering etc. No gearbox. No dangerous smelly, exhaust gases ever entering your boat. Probably no salt water heat exchangers needed (minimising hull fittings). No possibility of over heating. The possibility of power regeneration from the spinning prop. when under sail?

Now that electric cars are all the rage, large battery banks should be more readily available and the technology is now stable and reliable.

While at the construction stage the design work could be aimed at maximising solar panel installation (collection area-wise, shade provision etc.).
Having lived in the tropics for most of my life, I can assure you that good shade is essential. PV panels can do this for you.
I would expect an electric installation may well be lighter as well, allowing possibly for a better ballast to displacement ratio.

My expectation is because of rising fossil fuel costs and local legislation, that electrically propelled boats will soon start appearing from the production companies.

Considering that most boats spend most of their time in marinas, then purchasing electric power has got to be much cheaper than buying diesel.

At this stage diesel propulsion may seem initially to be preferable cost wise, but any one who tells you diesel engines are "install and forget" is telling very big fibs.

Having a large battery bank also means you can run not just refrigeration but also cooking, winches and possibly A/C off them as well.

On a larger vessel such as yours, you may also consider an "off the shelf" dedicated gen set for emergencies.
I am sure you are aware of the special electrical corrosion issues involved with aluminium hulls.

Being in Europe, I am sure there are many progressive electric drive companies.

My final observation is that it is rare to see anyone building their own boats in todays market place. There are just so many excellent boats on the second hand market going for a song - and a few years work.
Hi!

The naval architects and I decided to not go down this route. For once it is cost prohibitive to give a vessel of these dimensions a reasonable amount of range at a reasonable speed, even with a big generator to recharge the battery bank.

Under ideal conditions the amount of solar that will be fitted to the boat would be enough to recharge the required battery bank, but I am focusing on the cases when conditions are not ideal and when we still need a reliable engine. And that doesn't just involve the engine itself, but also the energy source (batteries vs Diesel).

I may have to motor for a couple of days in a row and I am not sure the electric drive will let me do this.

Diesel engines are not the most reliable, I've had my share of trouble with them. But with an electric drive and the accompanying battery bank and big AC generator, I may even have more complexity and error sources.

Long story short, I think for my application this technology is not quite were I would want it to be. I am not brave enough to go to Patagonia with an electric drive set up..
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Old 20-05-2022, 03:00   #14
MJF
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moontide View Post
Can get non-common rail engines outside the US (and EU?) fairly easy, but getting them into country bit harder due to EPA restrictions.



I would stay away from common rail if going to outlying areas. Much harder to find someone who can work on them. Regular diesels can be worked on by most mechanics.



As far as the right power train, I would use a naval architect to spec it out based on boats parameters. Can also try larger prop shops. They are pretty experienced at real world applications for propulsion systems
I would love to stay away from common rail but I think in order to get CE certification, I have to comply with emission regulations.

I am working with both naval architect and boat yard on the power train but want some more input from other sources to contest their suggestions a bit and check for validity.
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Old 20-05-2022, 04:01   #15
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Re: 60ft alu centreboard engine / drive train setup

I'm a big fan of the John Deere, Kubuto mechanical fuel injected engines. There is two ways to get high power out of an IC engine, rev the hell out of it at low torque or keep the revs down and the torque up. High reliability tends to favor the latter and the Deere and Kubota engines tend to this philosophy.

At this point in engine development and from a reliability viewpoint the mechanical injection system is by far the most robust and long term reliable diesel injection system.

On the drive line question I would opt for a standard marine gearbox but go conservative on the power rating. Maybe 50% over engine horsepower.

Years ago I saw a multihull with the entire engine/drive line hanging under the bridge deck and tilt-able so that the prop could be raised completely out of the water. This started me on pondering on whether this could be implemented in a monohull. My final conclusion was that it could be practicable and of considerable advantage in circumstances where prop damage is likely to occur.
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