Would you choose an Endeavorcat 34 or Gemini 105mc to cross the Atlantic?

[Davy J]

Originally Posted by Sos

I don't think anyone has said it can't be done. The OP's question was "Would you choose...
The general consensus is that they would not CHOOSE either of them!

And as I said in my first post, on page one, that consensus is mostly being spewed by people that have never owned, and in many cases, never sailed on either boat........

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by river251

Yes I know people cross the ocean in a bathtub, but seriously, it your budget limited you to one of these older cats, would you be very comfortable/confident crossing the Atlantic in it?



Thanks

Jim

No. Would certainly not be "very comfortable/confident".

[Mr B]

I have sailed my 2003, 105MC Gemini, across 3000 nmiles from Fiji to Australia,
The previous owner sailed it from San Deago across the Pacific to all the Islands including Australia,
I also rebuilt it after getting wrecked on a beach in a very violent storm,
Two Brand new beefed up Hulls, From 5 MM to 13 MM,
New wiring, Plumbing, Electrics, Solar panels, Dinghy,
New ONWA 8 inch GPS, Etc Etc Etc,

I now sail it in Bass Strait, Victoria, Australia, Another 1000 Nmiles of Open Ocean, And single handed all the way,
I have sailed it in winds, well in excess of 40 knots and huge seas,
Its more than capable of any thing the ocean can throw at it,

There are 3 Gemini 105MC's in Australia, All sailed here,
There are quite a few Gemini's in Hawai, England and Europe,

Im about to take it on an 18,000 mile voyage around Australia,
3000 Nmiles will be on the Southern Ocean on the way home from Perth, WA,

If you have never sailed on open Ocean in a Gemini, you have no idea on how capable a Gemini 105MC actually is,

Picture is my boat at Yaringa Marina, Westernport Bay, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia,

Cheers, Brian,

Gemini 105MC, Hull number 825,
4000 Nmiles of Single Handed, Open Ocean, And Loving it,

[Fore and Aft]

I had to check my files and I have surveyed an Endeavor cat 30 that sailed from the USA to Australia. Not sure if it was luck or balls that got them here but they made it.
Some of these older cat designs remind me of a Roberts spray with a tunnel down the middle!
Cheers

[river251]

Beautiful boat, Brian!

[owly]

No experience with either cat... I've looked at the various "econo" cats with the same idea, and concluded that neither of these would be ideal IMHO. The narrow beam and shovel nose calls for a good measure of seamanship... never let your guard down even for a second. Reef early reef often (paraphrase from Richard Daley). Cats in general call for greater attention as they do not "signal" to reef by heel. If you turn one over mid ocean, your chances are not good. It's not coming back up. Nobody to my knowledge has ever managed to right one without help in a real world situation, and you cannot shelter in the hulls because if you cut an opening for air and access it will fill up unlike a trimaran. It may not sink, but that's little comfort when it provides zero shelter, and no access except swimming down into the boat... just imagine doing that! So much for the scare tactic ;-) Countless catamarans both narrow and wide beam have safely crossed oceans. Weather routing and good reefing awareness are critical IMHO. Light weight, low drag, shallow draft, they are easily driven in the lightest of winds meaning that crossing time is reduced, and that's a good thing.
Modern designers have enhanced catamaran design and made is safer and more comfortable. Wide beam not only means stability, (greater safety margin) but also good safe forward access, and less cramped accommodations. Netting at the bows instead of being decked all the way forward allows the bows to recover more rapidly if you plow into the back of a wave. I would want some sort of drag device and a bridle in place for surfing conditions... Doesn't have to be fancy or expensive.... The Abbott drogue is probably the cheapest and very effective (home assembled). The solid bridge deck beginning well aft of the bows also reduces slamming issues. Headroom on the bridge deck means sacrificing clearance or windage, a trade off you aren't faced with monos or trimarans. Every designer tackles this differently, sacrificing something.



In addition there is the payload issue......... What is the displacement of the boat compared to the actual empty weight? These numbers are often not published for the obvious reason that the payload is pathetic. Most cats are going to be overloaded most of the time, and especially on passage. This pushes the structure beyond design limits, reduces bridge deck clearance, etc. The best way to cross an ocean in one of these is probably to think like a backpacker..... Strip out everything that isn't really essential. Ounces add up to pounds, and most things we think are "essential" really are conveniences.


Personally I decided to look away from factory builts. There is nothing wrong with owner built ply/epoxy boats, in fact they tend to be lighter and stronger than solid glass factory built boats. People are afraid of them because they are "home built", but a home builder often puts more care into his boat than someone in a factory. It's pretty easy to tell a "labor of love" from a half assed job. They usually incorporate sensibly wide beam of 18' or more, and netting forward, both of which are high on my list. Stand up headroom in the bridge deck cabin of a 30' cat is absurd IMHO. It comes at a cost in clearance and / or windage. You can stand in the cockpit or in the hulls, and sit down in the cabin. One designer uses two doors from the cockpit into the cabin with sliders so you can go from the cockpit down into the hulls without stooping over. Another uses a pop top. A 30' cat is not a condo cat! Bending over when passing through the cabin to a seat at the table is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

[smj]

A good comparison would be the Gemini 105MC and the Seawind 1000.
The Gemini is 1’ longer and the Seawind 5’4” wider.
We have owned 2 Gemini’s and 2 Seawind 1000’s and I wouldn’t bat an eye at purchasing another Seawind but not another Gemini.
The Seawind is better built, much stiffer in a breeze, faster except maybe going to weather, much easier to get around on,much higher bridgedeck and a much more gentle motion. The Gemini has a shallower draft, lower mast height and easier to find a slip due to the skinnier beam.
Two major factors for me are the higher bridgedeck clearance and the gentler motion. Even if a boat is built like a tank the owners aren’t and the lack of motion and noise of a slapping bridgedeck make for a much more rested crew.
There was a modified beach cat that I believe either made or almost made a circumnavigation, and no doubt I would have rather been on a Gemini, but for the price I believe one can find a better cat than the Gemini for crossing oceans.......not that a Gemini wouldn’t be successful.

[Davy J]

Originally Posted by Mr B

I have sailed my 2003, 105MC Gemini, across 3000 miles from Fiji to Australia,
The previous owner sailed it from San Diego across the Pacific to all the Islands including Australia,

[sarcasm] Don't bring your real world experience in here............. the naysayers once looked at a Gemini,.... at a boat show, twenty two years ago.. and could tell, just by looking,........ that we should never leave the mill pond.........

Even the guy that owned a 105M (apparently now two), that I showed is not exactly the same boat.... [/sarcasm]

Congratulations on getting the boat back in the water, and good luck on your journey.........

[smj]

Originally Posted by Davy J

[sarcasm] Don't bring your real world experience in here............. the naysayers once looked at a Gemini,.... at a boat show, twenty two years ago.. and could tell, just by looking,........ that we should never leave the mill pond.........

Even the guy that owned a 105M (apparently now two), that I showed is not exactly the same boat.... [/sarcasm]

Congratulations on getting the boat back in the water, and good luck on your journey.........

Your right Davy, I’m sure if our old Gemini would have had one more letter in its models name it surely would have been the most seaworthy catamaran we’ve owned.[emoji23][emoji23]🤣

[Davy J]

Originally Posted by smj

Your right Davy, I’m sure if our old Gemini would have had one more letter in its models name it surely would have been the most seaworthy catamaran we’ve owned.[emoji23][emoji23]🤣

So what you are saying, is that you hated the first one so bad you bought a second one................

[smj]

Originally Posted by Davy J

So what you are saying, is that you hated the first one so bad you bought a second one................

Nope, took the second one as a partial trade in on our Edel 43. It was in good shape and I knew it would sell quickly.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by owly

No experience with either cat... I've looked at the various "econo" cats with the same idea,

I think this is the source of many of the negative comments.

After people pony up the cash for a non-econo cat, they feel the need to justify their extra expense.

Are Gemini's perfect? Certainly not but the idea that they will break up or fall over on an ocean crossing is really silly if you starting with a boat in good condition and you sail conservatively.

[Davy J]

Originally Posted by smj

Your right Davy, I’m sure if our old Gemini would have had one more letter in its models name it surely would have been the most seaworthy catamaran we’ve owned.[emoji23][emoji23]🤣

I'm sure you know that they changed the model numbers to reflect the changes they made in the boat.............?

Otherwise, they would have kept calling it the 105M........

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Davy J

[sarcasm] Don't bring your real world experience in here............. the naysayers once looked at a Gemini,.... at a boat show, twenty two years ago.. and could tell, just by looking,........ that we should never leave the mill pond.........

Even the guy that owned a 105M (apparently now two), that I showed is not exactly the same boat.... [/sarcasm]

Congratulations on getting the boat back in the water, and good luck on your journey.........

Thank you, It was a struggle at times getting it there,

Before I bought my Gemini 9 years ago,

I was told it was a coastal cruiser and would sink and break up in any thing other than a mill pond,

It would even struggle in the enclosed very safe waters of the ICW, Which is a Mill Pond, A Back water to the Ocean, Its not even real Ocean,
Granted, Its salt water, Hahahahaha

Westernport Bay here is 20 kays long, Then its Bass Strait, Open Ocean,

The Eastern end of Bass Strait is where the Sydney Hobart yachts sunk, To give you an Idea on the sea state we encounter here from time to time,
My Gemini, Or any Boat I purchase, must be capable of handling violent extreme weather and huge seas,

And no matter what people like to think, You will be in violent extreme weather sooner or later if your a sailor, Sailing off shore, Like I do,

Especially on here, By the learned master sailors, That knew every thing there was to know about boats,

I researched for information about my Gemini from people that actually sailed them on Open Oceans,
Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, Real Ocean Sailing,
Tony Smith Crossing the Atlantic,
If he can do it, I can,

There were quite a number of Gemini's sailing around the Pacific at the time I bought mine,

Out of 1200 made over the years, About 10 Maximum that have actually flipped over, Mainly due to stupidity and Ignorance, ,

If Gemini's were as unsafe as people try to make out they are,
There would be a lot more that would have sunk,

I love the way people say, I have never sailed or been on either, But I am world expert on both, hahahahahaha

Rocks took the bottom out of my Gemini, A Danforth that failed,

Cheers, Brian,

[xxuxx]

A few years ago there were 2 Gemini’s in the caribe 1500, they both were that last to arrive and both had major problems with the heavy seas. They made it but both said the vessel wasn’t made for those seas as it is better served as a coastal cruiser. FYI