Why not in boom furling on multi hulls?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Thank you, jmh2002 and Tupaia.

I think I'm getting a better understanding of what can be done with non-rolling reefing.

After reading these posts and looking at some examples on line, I do have another question or two.

I basically have the same boat as Grit. No rig yet. It's really light and has a lot of sail area in the main. High performance stuff. 50' cat with a 65-70' mast height. It's going to need 3 reef points for sure. 4 would probably be better. The infinite number of reef points on the roller has some attraction.


Is there a way to have 3-4 reef points work with the slab reefing lead to the cockpit?

I still have all the normal lines and lines for dagger boards going to the cockpit as well.

If these slab systems work well for the main, is there some similar system for Hank on jibs? Why are these always roller furlers? Just because of the loose clew?

Yes, I have 4 reefs and dagger board all controlled from the cockpit.

[Chotu]

Thank you very much! I have a lot of respect for people who come from racing. You guys actually understand sailing better than we do. LOL I’m just a cruiser. These little intricacies often escape me. As I get from point A to point B, I do OK, but you do better. Ha ha

It’s enjoyable to learn these details and apply them to cruising.

I’m starting to have a lot of interest in this system because it sounds like something that is on its face, complicated, but in the long run, more simple. Repairable if there’s a problem. Easily. Less reliance on proprietary parts.

I like the thoughts about good size blocks and small lines. Really, I am a lazy sailor. I want to do the right things, but I don’t want to go up on deck and do them. Especially since I have an inside helm only. I’ve got a pretty unique set up when it comes to line handling. Has to do with some health issues that I have.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

It doesn't always work in this infinite way (@Leisurefurl can correct me or elaborate on this point with their system). Normally 'Reef points' are still assumed, and the sail is built and reinforced accordingly. In Mast Furling with no (vertical) battens can be infinite, but then the sail shape suffers too.



Yes we had 3 reefs and intended to build a new mainsail with 4 reefs.
Everything works the same, you just need enough lines, sheaves, blocks, rope clutches, etc.

You can end up with a lot of lines. The small diameter lines help here too.
For me coming from race boats since I was young this wasn't an issue and I was always disciplined about coiling and tidying the lines. It's a sailing boat after all (but I am shocked when I see these YouTube videos and the cockpit is always a spaghetti mess).

One thing we did do though was remove the third reefing lines (replace with mouse lines) once we arrived 'down island'. Eg: we used them for the passage from the east coast usa, but would remove them after arriving in the caribbean. But we were fussy and performance orientated. Most people probably wouldn't bother.



Already 25 years ago, on a monohull, we switched to the IMOCA or Multihull way of doing things. Big mainsail, with a small blade 100% headsail.

I don't like using a headsail partially furled. The sail shape is total crap for going upwind. So furling Yes (single line furler), but for storage, not for reefing.

I advocate carrying the full headsail and reefing the mainsail, up to the point where you furl the headsail totally away and step down to a staysail on an inner forestay. This is then a small sail and can be on hanks, or these days a synthetic luff and a single line furler too (I think especially on a cat hanks are more than ok for this small staysail, but people are lazy)

This also still leaves the possibility of using a 'proper' heavy ocean passage storm jib on the inner forestay position when required. Don't listen to the BS comments that say "my roller furling headsail is ok for this" - it's not.

You can search my username for posts in relation to "cutter" for more info on this subject.

Hope this helps.

Oh, PS: I would suggest 4 reefs in your cruising mainsail. These days nobody is going to drop the main and switch to a storm trysail and on a multi by that point a heavy storm jib is enough. But a 4th reef can be useful in heavy air when you need to make progress. Like I suggested above, maybe just run the lines for passages, or known windy locations.

PS2: Rereading @Tupaia's comments - I concur and can't refute any of those points either.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Can you explain the sail controls on this type of lazy jack system or provide a link to somewhere they does?

I’d say I’m between an external to the boom furling system and dropping to a stack pack.

Is there a way to reliably put reefs in without leaving the helm? Doing it through various control lines?

Yes I can single handed reef whilst sailing on a well organised system. As another poster mentioned it works best indeed almost only when you have a fully battened main with roller bearing batten cars.

Two basic systems, single line and double line.

Single line: The reefing line goes from round boom to reefing BLOCK on leech (not just through a cringle) attached to cringle, the bigger the block the better, then to rear of boom, round a sheave in the rear, up the inside of boom to front round a sheave and up to reefing block on luff, down to turning blocks and sheaves at base of mast and back to cockpit. As another poster said, sail on a reach, ease traveller right out, ease main sheet, ease halyard to premarked location and pull reef in, also to premarked location, then tension halyard. Easing the main sheet is important as the reef will usually alter the boom angle.

Double line: same except luff and leech lines remain seperate.

Single line has more friction, double has twice as many lines.

There can be mix and match and variations, eg most boats I sail have three reef points, given that the first reef can go in quite early without significant loss of performance and that it is easy to put them in at that time, that the first is a double line with handling done at the mast ( or even just a leech line and put the luff in as a strop over horn system. Though one of the things about double line first reef is that the luff line can be used as a dodgy cunningham) and the second and third single line and lead back, also some people have three reefing points and two lines, in coastal sailing use 1 and 2 and before going off shore put in two and three but i would refer to double line one and leave 2 and 3 single.

Friction management is key particularly on single line, hence Big Reefing blocks.

Also just a point on sail bags versus just lazy jacks, I can tie the bag connected lazy jacks forward on a sail bag system, and roll the bag up and use a couple of velcro straps to hold the bag. This is useful when sailing off the breeze to reduce chafing of the main on the lines.

[chrisr]

we have had slab reefing on our racing monos, then boom furling on our first cat (a system put out by hood sails, very similar to the leisure furl) and now in mast furling on our present cat. thus i'm fairly able to compare the advantages and disadvantages of each

obviously if you are into performance sailing, slab reefing is the way to go. various systems (eg batten cars, lazy jacks) make this easier but it's still labour intensive and need to point into the wind

in boom furling is fine, but you must keep the boom at the right angle and point into the wind

for us (a couple in mid 60's), in mast is proving the most suitable. not perfect, but easy, on any point of sailing

no one system is perfect or 'the best'...it all depends on who you are and what you need

cheers,

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Leisurefurl

Hi All
Ive read with interest the comments and concerns each has, on in boom furling, and since I have invested 20 years on this, i thought i might wade in on the discussion as there is some comment that is not accurate and comments that could be further clarified to help those that have a thought for interest, or an actual question to assist with decision making.
From a mainsail furling perspective there are many manufacturers and design options, and each of these satisfy the user with a desired level of performance.
Ask me a question, I am stuck inside and happy to help!!

Just curious, how is it possible that the furling mandrel pulls through the boom? What condition would cause this?

[atlroofman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I’m getting older. Getting lazier.

My monohull right now has in mast furling, as well as standard furling for a 135 genoa and solent. Running backstays. Everything is electric. It’s a joy to use. Allows for reduction of sail area very simply, and stowing and deploying sails is a piece of cake.

I’m wondering why catamarans don’t have in boom furling? I can understand why there is no in mast furling, because of the Huge battens and roach On the high aspect rigs.

But why not roll that thing up in the boom?

There is a 38 ft lagoon for sale in south florida that has in mast furling. Always thought that would make singlehanding a breeze.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by chrisr

...obviously if you are into performance sailing, slab reefing is the way to go. various systems (eg batten cars, lazy jacks) make this easier but it's still labour intensive and need to point into the wind

This point I do not agree with.

And in fact I suggest that you DO NOT point into the wind when using slab reefing (and full batten main / mast track combo)

As I and other posters mentioned:

- Keep the boat sailing under the headsail, on a close reach
- The boat stays stable like this, not pitching up and down into a head sea
- If it's a monohull the boat's heel angle is reduced during the maneuver
- It's not necessary to start the engine (and potentially foul lines)
- The boom is not swinging dangerously in the centre
- etc, etc

[Factor]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

This point I do not agree with.

And in fact I suggest that you DO NOT point into the wind when using slab reefing (and full batten main / mast track combo)

As I and other posters mentioned:

- Keep the boat sailing under the headsail, on a close reach
- The boat stays stable like this, not pitching up and down into a head sea
- If it's a monohull the boat's heel angle is reduced during the maneuver
- It's not necessary to start the engine (and potentially foul lines)
- The boom is not swinging dangerously in the centre
- etc, etc

Yes I agree I don't quite know how to say it in any other way. On a well designed multihull/sail/bag combination - You DO NOT have to turn engines on, you do NOT have to turn into wind (which be dangerous in extreme conditions)

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Ixnax: Sorry for the confusion. I commented to three members in the same post. I was referring to the member "Factor" stirring pots. He has a trimaran, and other multihulls.

My comment to you was a simple thank you.

Cheers.
Paul.

Sorry man, my confusion. A not abnormal condition these days I'm afraid.

[GRIT]

No apology necessary. Thanks for the information, re roller furling boom.

Cheers.
Paul.

[frederic_b]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yes I agree I don't quite know how to say it in any other way. On a well designed multihull/sail/bag combination - You DO NOT have to turn engines on, you do NOT have to turn into wind (which be dangerous in extreme conditions)

Same here, on a Lagoon 45.
Would sail under head sail only, put the main completely to the wind (the cat is large, so there is space for this), slow the boat to 4-5kn, but still with angle to the sea, than run the reef operation.
Works 80% of the time. For the rest I’d run one engine for support in case of need.

F.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by frederic_b

Same here, on a Lagoon 45.
Would sail under head sail only, put the main completely to the wind (the cat is large, so there is space for this), slow the boat to 4-5kn, but still with angle to the sea, than run the reef operation.
Works 80% of the time. For the rest I’d run one engine for support in case of need.

F.

if sea not too bad, I also raise mainsail using tightened jib at around 45 app, ie no engines.

reefing, I reef main on any point of sail. replaced reefing lines with dyneema and process is a breeze. At least so far never had an issue except it is bit physical downwind from full sail to second reef.