Who has owned a cat with daggerboards?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by DougM

I have not had problems with boards. I've always kept them retracted when docked, so only the bottom (or leading edge on Gemini) are exposed to fouling, and as it is on the darkest part of the hull, the antifoul does its thing well.

But if you arent really into maximizing your upwind sailing, minikeels are a great zero maintenance option.

Also had a Gemini and we would hit what we could reach with bottom pain but never saw any growth beyond the exposed edge. I think between being dark and limited water flow, it wasn't a good environment for growth.

They aren't quite as good as dagger boards for performance but they are held down via friction and if you did hit bottom, they would just swing up.

Operating them is usually not an issue. If racing, you expect to be constantly tweaking things anyway. If cruising, you typically aren't tacking every 5-10minutes, so you set the boards for conditions and sail for a few hours. Depends on how intense you want to be about performance.

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by MyCatLife

I figure I'd have them at rudder depth when in shallow water,... and full down on passages.

I realise that you were simplifying, but a better default simple operation would for your standard setting to be something less than full down. For many dagger board boats you only want the boards all the way down to go upwind in lighter conditions. In other conditions you do not need them all the way down, so a default for passages would be less than full down.

[chrisr]

we have mini-keels so not an issue for us, but anyone care to comment on the theory that the leeward board should always be up if there is any breeze

heard of a couple of capsizes that have been attributed to the boat 'tripping' over the leeward board instead of sliding sideways...

cheers,

[jmh2002]

And don't forget the neat trick on a downwind passage of sailing a higher apparent wind angle in light air to keep the sails full, while leaving the daggerboards mostly up to encourage the boat to slide sideways and achieve a better downwind VMG to your destination.

Many performance cats will change their sailing angle by 10-15deg depending on whether the daggerboards are fully up or fully down.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by chrisr

we have mini-keels so not an issue for us, but anyone care to comment on the theory that the leeward board should always be up if there is any breeze

heard of a couple of capsizes that have been attributed to the boat 'tripping' over the leeward board instead of sliding sideways...

cheers,

We have one daggerboard, angled to cope with port or starboard tack and has never been an issue. There is a big difference between cruising with board(s) than if you are racing and or flying a hull when the leeward board is the only one in the water so needs to be down.

Unless you over cook things modern cats are pretty safe as is proved by cats like your own with mini keels that always have a leeway keel down.

[NevilleCat]

My little older cruising cat had boards, but they never made that model with keels so don't know how it would compare.
No problems with the boards, they were weighted so dropping and pulling them up was easy and quick. I liked to beach that boat regularly for scrubbing and even though it was heavily laid solid glass on the bottom I would have preferred a small beaching keel as well as the boards and lifting rudders for ease of mind in that situation.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by chrisr

we have mini-keels so not an issue for us, but anyone care to comment on the theory that the leeward board should always be up if there is any breeze

heard of a couple of capsizes that have been attributed to the boat 'tripping' over the leeward board instead of sliding sideways...

cheers,

In normal sailing conditions, the leeward board will generally give better performance as that hull will sit deeper in the water giving it a better grip. If there are asymmetric boards, they will often be set up to benefit from this operation.

In extreme conditions where a capsize might occur:
- Ideally use no boards, so the boat can just slide sideways rather than lift a hull.
- Assuming you can't accept leeway due to navigational hazards, using the windward board is generally the recommended option. It will still do well enough to stop leeway but if a gust lifts the hull, the board comes out of the water and the boat starts sliding sideways...in theory before the boat goes over.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In normal sailing conditions, the leeward board will generally give better performance as that hull will sit deeper in the water giving it a better grip. If there are asymmetric boards, they will often be set up to benefit from this operation.

In extreme conditions where a capsize might occur:
- Ideally use no boards, so the boat can just slide sideways rather than lift a hull.
- Assuming you can't accept leeway due to navigational hazards, using the windward board is generally the recommended option. It will still do well enough to stop leeway but if a gust lifts the hull, the board comes out of the water and the boat starts sliding sideways...in theory before the boat goes over.

that is pretty much my understanding as well

in this case (off newcastle 2019)



the suggestion was the leeward board was down (as can be seen fm the pic) and this was a major part of the problem - although nothing has ever become public.

cheers,

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In normal sailing conditions, the leeward board will generally give better performance as that hull will sit deeper in the water giving it a better grip. If there are asymmetric boards, they will often be set up to benefit from this operation.

At the risk of further diverting this thread....

Interesting....the leeward board is not the default board on my boat.

My boat best speed is to use the board that balances the helm in the most neutral position.

With a large main and fractional jib going upwind the windward board moves the center if resistance further aft with respect to center of force on the sails induced by the apparent wind, better balancing the forces between main and jib. The traveler is then used to further dial in the boat. When well tuned the helm is near dead center. On autopilot the helm will pan between dead ahead and slightly off the wind (countering a slight weather helm).

Same principle applies with wind aft of the beam. Best speed is with a neutral helm. If a board is required it may be the leeward board, or commonly just a little of both boards.

This is surely strongly driven by hull shape and sail plan, so I expect what works on my Maine Cat 38 does not necessarily translate to other boats. I would encourage the skipper to work out best strategy for the individual boat. From my experience sea state and water current also play a role.

To the OPs point, this is a good example of tweaking a dagger board boat. You may love it, or find it not that interesting.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Sparx

At the risk of further diverting this thread....

Snip


To the OPs point, this is a good example of tweaking a dagger board boat. You may love it, or find it not that interesting.

Excellent description as to the proper use of daggerboards.



If the OP is not interested in the intricacies of board use then the performance benefit is likely to be less than with mini keels. In the same way that a rotating mast used thoughtlessly or ignored will be less effective than a fixed mast.

[tcpbob]

A lot of points of discussion here.
My boat has boards, flick up rudders and outboards. wouldn’t have it any other way. So far done SE Asia, Indian Ocean, Med and Atlantic ocean. From Tasmania to Grenada, this voyage. My boards are easily adjusted when under way and do not rattle around in the cases. I have had one board damaged but the whale I hit came off worse judging by the pool of blood he left behind. That was in Bass Strait. But thankfully I was able to sail into the Tamar river with the other board (windward) and make repairs which were easy from materials I had on board. No structural damage to the hull or case.

I am fine with taking the ground if I am certain of nice clean sand.

As far as speed, our fastest was 18 kts and frightened crap out of the skipper… don’t ever want to again single handed. but 12-13 is just real nice sailing. I think a lot of cats with keels are not targeting a market for performance enthusiasts and boards cost more in labor to build.

I don’t know about the two Spirited 38’s mentioned in posts above. Surprising though.

Horses for courses. If you want performance, get a Corvette not a Cadillac. But I guess in cats, you can have both if you have unlimited funds.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by tcpbob

I don’t know about the two Spirited 38’s mentioned in posts above. Surprising though.

Spirited 380s are light, small and have pretty big rigs for their size. They need to be sailed carefully. Quite a few of them have flipped.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Spirited 380s are light, small and have pretty big rigs for their size. They need to be sailed carefully. Quite a few of them have flipped.

it takes having a 48'er to be able to call a 38'er 'small'...

cheers,

[tcpbob]

Spirited 380s are light, small and have pretty big rigs for their size. They need to be sailed carefully. Quite a few of them have flipped.

Hey JustMurph, thanks for the info. i didn't know their rigs were that tall. i talked to all yacht about mine and they recommended the 380 rig but I went with a seawind 1160 rig from tempo instead. my boat is 12 meters and the stick is 16m. the boat is 6 ton loaded for world cruising, about 4.6 launched with a cut lunch and a six pack.



is there a design issue with the 380 as well?



i talked often with tim mumby at carmen harbour in philippines. the boys have built some good boats up there. last one i saw and jawed with was "2fast4you", austrian i met in Canarys.



and chrisr, if you hang around McClean please tell Ty on Sahara bob on barebones said hi.

[JustMurph]

You boat sounds like it will be a weapon!

I don't know that there's really a design issue as such, I certainly can't see anything obvious. I suspect the issue is more to do with how they're sailed. Probably owners not paying the attention they should on a light and powerful boat,

That said I was told there was a "performance" rig option that was about the size of what's on my 48 footer. The owner apparently said it terrifying and always sails it reefed. That's all anecdotal though.