Who has owned a cat with daggerboards?

[Apollo19.5]

Originally Posted by fxykty

One rule of thumb on any boat that can sail fast, particularly on racing multihulls, is always sleep feet forward. If an athwartship bed, hopefully it is king size and you can turn yourself 90 degrees. Decelerations are always many times faster than accelerations, so it makes sense to protect yourself from the bows stuffing into a wave.
.....

Was one of the first things drilled into me when i started racing offshore - sleep feet first. Came home to roost when i hit a tree floating under the surface in a racing mono. Stopped us dead from 9knots. Guys asleep offwatch got ejected from bunk. One broke his ankle when he hit a bulkhead. If sleeping head first, the result would have been ugly for him.

[catsketcher]

Thanks for the reminder about sleeping feet first.

I think the risk from daggerboards down is overstated. As has been said fast reaching requires minimal or no daggers. But almost all multis, cats, tris and proas nowadays have plumb bows. The same worries were promulgated by people opposed to them when they came out.

We could design bows with Wharramesque overhangs and a sweeping forefoot, that would blithely ride up and over logs and containers. But we are happy to build our boats with collision bulkheads, false cedar bows and extra laminates up front to get the extra waterline length, deeper forefoot, higher prismatic and consequent extra speed, load carrying and reduced pitching.

Its the same with daggers. I don't want a surface piercing rudder or dagger if possible. The dangers of sucking air down a highly loaded and less efficient (due to the lack of a hull endplate) foil and losing control is more of a worry to me than the very slight worry that a log will hit the dagger (when it is down when it is mostly up) when I am going very fast (which I hardly ever do when the dagger is down) and that it won't hit the plumb bow first and stop the boat with 25cm of vertical cedar and glass. So just wrap some extra unis around the board case, keep some cedar and epoxy on board and always keep the depth sounder on with alarm. I feel it is a safer bet than any alternative. The feeling of losing control due to ventilation is something I really don't want, nor the worry and efficiency loss of a centreboard case. Dagger cases are very set and forget as are the boards themselves.

[tcpbob]

Hey Rob, I missed this below as I went for a little sail toward Trinidad the other day. My responses are in bold. I agree with most everything fxykty has had to say and would add…..


You are shooting the messenger. NO! it’s the message I have trouble with, as below in bold.

Does tcp in your name stand for The Coastal Passage? A great read, including the part about Bare Bones hitting a log at 10 knots, spinning the boat around. It was most of a meter in diameter and semi submerged. I was annoyed with that as it damaged my antifoul on my starboard bow But the head on collision with the humpback whale in Bass Strait was worse as I had to repair the leading edge on the board when I got to River Tamar. Good to have another board. BTW, I was pointing as high as I could so was only doing about 7 kts in a moderate breeze. The whales speed toward me was unknown but it was apparent that the whale came off second best from the huge pool of blood he left behind. Poor buggar. Glad those guys are civilised beasts or it could have been trouble for me. I would conservatively guess that the combined speed of BareBones and the whale was in excess of 10 kts. Don’t know how I survived! Sorry to disappoint but no other damage except for the spilled drinkand stuff knocked around. And no, the beast was not sleeping on the surface. I was watching.


All build details of my boards and cases can be found at www.buildacat.com >see barebones project> select item page


What happened to TCP? Go to the web site and see. Www.thecoastalpassage.com


When conditions are nice and I feel like being sporty, 12-14 kts is a lot of fun. I don’t worry about debris in the water any more than I worry about a horse running into traffic on a freeway. The fastest I have been was 18 kts and debris in the water was my last concern. I am a single hander and that was too fast without good crew on a little 12m cat.


It is not about possibility, it is about probability.

Saying 20 + kts is a performance cruiser ‘bracket’ is an assertion that just does not apply. That is racing speed. I’ve had cars that would do over 200 k’s per hour, but I didn’t usually go that fast…. Except once in a while and then it wasn’t rocks in the road that worried me, it was a cop with radar.


Imagine the boat hits something solid at your reduced 10.5 knots speed with board more than 300mm down. There will be a small time while the bows submerge (WHAT? REALLY?!) and the board crushes into the back of the case, alarmist language and not true in my case. Did this happen to a boat you were on? If so, who built it?
Rob, I haven’t read of your sailing experiences.Crossed an ocean? Done some ocean racing? Then write all about it and tell us what you did that worked FOR YOU. That might be good reading.


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[rob denney]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Is rob suggesting boats need to be fitted with bulkhead airbags to prevent people running into them from being injured.

If I am "suggesting" anything, it is that performance boat owners should think about collisions. As you have. I am glad you survived yours and the system worked. *

SMJ,
Heavy cables down the mast and into the water or to a sintered plate below the water is the usual approach, but there are others: 'Dissipators' and 'shields' you can place at the top of the mast, putting your electronics in the microwave (Faraday cage) to name a couple.* There is a huge amount of information on the web, some of it contradictory. *

Neko,
Solid and slow is certainly a workable solution, if you don't mind the repair bill and the lost time.

Stuffing the bows hard enough to damage sleeping crew requires bigger waves and higher speeds than any sensible cruiser would sail in/at.* The reason experienced crew sleep feet forward at speed is in case the boat hits something solid, not the back of a wave. I find it peculiar to sleep feet forward, but not otherwise plan for the possibility of hitting some thing.

Arguing the theory of surface piercing appendages versus the practice of fast dinghy and small cat stern hung rudders and foilers generally is a lost cause.
Loss of control happens when the foil stalls and flow separates. Ventilation follows after control is lost. If air is not sucked downm the low pressure side, turbulent water ius, with the same effect. A function of excessive steering angle, assuming a reasonable shape and finish on the foil.
"Efficiency" is arguably maximised by 2 side hung or between hull appendages, with small fences, which operate in clear water; rather than 4 appendages in the turbulent hull boundary layer.

A boat with non raked stem/forefoot should have a crush zone (we use 600mm/2' of lightly glassed high density polystyrene) and a steeply angled (45 degree) strong, well bonded bulkhead behind it, for the same reasons it should have kick up boards and rudders.* Apollo's post re hitting a log at 9 knots, which is faster than most of us can run (ie, imagine running into a wall), and slower than many of us sail, should be food for thought. *
**
Daggerboards being "set and forget" adds to the problem, especially when it is probable they will need to be lowered again 'soon', the crew is tired, boat speed increases quickly as the wind backs or it is more urgent to get the reefs in than the boards up.

Bob,*
What does my experience have to do with it, apart from shooting the messenger?* If you and fxykty believe there is effectively nothing to hit (lightning strikes and horses on freeways) and/or that you will only hit it at low (or average) speed, go for it.*
By 'submerge the bows', I meant the bow is forced downwards/depressed/tilted forward/reduces it's freeboard when the board hits. *Thus slightly reducing the impetus propelling the crew forward. Sorry if this was not clear to you.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

I find a copious amount of rum helps.

It's like duct tape really. There's not much it can't fix.🙂

[smj]

Originally Posted by rob denney

If I am "suggesting" anything, it is that performance boat owners should think about collisions. As you have. I am glad you survived yours and the system worked. *



SMJ,

Heavy cables down the mast and into the water or to a sintered plate below the water is the usual approach, but there are others: 'Dissipators' and 'shields' you can place at the top of the mast, putting your electronics in the microwave (Faraday cage) to name a couple.* There is a huge amount of information on the web, some of it contradictory. *



Neko,

Solid and slow is certainly a workable solution, if you don't mind the repair bill and the lost time.



Stuffing the bows hard enough to damage sleeping crew requires bigger waves and higher speeds than any sensible cruiser would sail in/at.* The reason experienced crew sleep feet forward at speed is in case the boat hits something solid, not the back of a wave. I find it peculiar to sleep feet forward, but not otherwise plan for the possibility of hitting some thing.



Arguing the theory of surface piercing appendages versus the practice of fast dinghy and small cat stern hung rudders and foilers generally is a lost cause.

Loss of control happens when the foil stalls and flow separates. Ventilation follows after control is lost. If air is not sucked downm the low pressure side, turbulent water ius, with the same effect. A function of excessive steering angle, assuming a reasonable shape and finish on the foil.

"Efficiency" is arguably maximised by 2 side hung or between hull appendages, with small fences, which operate in clear water; rather than 4 appendages in the turbulent hull boundary layer.



A boat with non raked stem/forefoot should have a crush zone (we use 600mm/2' of lightly glassed high density polystyrene) and a steeply angled (45 degree) strong, well bonded bulkhead behind it, for the same reasons it should have kick up boards and rudders.* Apollo's post re hitting a log at 9 knots, which is faster than most of us can run (ie, imagine running into a wall), and slower than many of us sail, should be food for thought. *

**

Daggerboards being "set and forget" adds to the problem, especially when it is probable they will need to be lowered again 'soon', the crew is tired, boat speed increases quickly as the wind backs or it is more urgent to get the reefs in than the boards up.



Bob,*

What does my experience have to do with it, apart from shooting the messenger?* If you and fxykty believe there is effectively nothing to hit (lightning strikes and horses on freeways) and/or that you will only hit it at low (or average) speed, go for it.*

By 'submerge the bows', I meant the bow is forced downwards/depressed/tilted forward/reduces it's freeboard when the board hits. *Thus slightly reducing the impetus propelling the crew forward. Sorry if this was not clear to you.

It was the dissipater on our mast that got struck by lightning. My personal opinion when it comes to lightning is the best protection is a really good insurance policy.