where to register boat if going to use offshore?

[boatman61]

I know plenty of European and Turkish boat owners whose boats are registered in Delaware.. why dya think there so many Stars n Stripes in the Eastern Med..

[Factor]

Originally Posted by larsfforsberg

BUT - if you live on your boat, and you travel full time on this boat, then register it and pay taxes on it in whatever state or country treats you best.

Except if you are Australian, then it doesn't matter where you sail, if you are outside Australia IT MUST BE Australian Registered. Just thought I would mention that for the many Australians who follow the forum.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I know plenty of European and Turkish boat owners whose boats are registered in Delaware.. why dya think there so many Stars n Stripes in the Eastern Med..

Same for all those Dutch and Belgian registered boats in Spain owned by locals.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I know plenty of European and Turkish boat owners whose boats are registered in Delaware.. why dya think there so many Stars n Stripes in the Eastern Med..

Oh, boy, here we go again.


Snipet copied from the Delaware Department of Natural Resources and
Environmental Control:

Delaware law requires the registration of all motorboats, including those powered by electric motors, if Delaware is its state of principal use.
. . .
A vessel must be registered in its “State of Principal Use.” That is the state on whose waters the vessel is used or to be used most during a calendar year. Delaware regulations state that if the vessel is to be used, docked, or stowed on the waters of this State for over 60 consecutive days, Delaware is its “State of Principal Use.”



Nota Bene: A State registration is valid for the State of Principal Use. If a State is not a place of the vessel's State of Principal Use the registration is invalid.

So I suspect there are "plenty of European and Turkish boat owners whose boats are invalidly registered in Delaware."

Likely to be an issue as to availing USA nationality to the vessel under UNCLOS when the vessel is in international waters or a foreign place or port. Ships without nationality, also called stateless, flagless, or unregistered vessels, undermine the law-of-the-flag regime. Because stateless vessels do not have a flag state, no state can exercise control over them on the high seas or provide diplomatic protection on their behalf. Ships can become stateless in a variety of ways. They may lose their nationality if they violate their flag state’s laws or do not comply with its requirements; their flag state may be unrecognized by the international community; or they may never register with any state.



Nation stateless vessel status is undesirable in the scheme of international maritime law. The registration of ships is essential to the maintenance of order on the high seas. As a result, a stateless vessel “enjoys no protection whatever, for the freedom of navigation on the open sea is freedom for such vessels only as sail under the flag of a State”. Stateless status deprives a vessel of important privileges, such as the right to enter and leave territorial water and ports.

A vessel without nationality is a vessel that, under international law, is not entitled to fly the flag of any State or, as referred to in Article 92 of UNCLOS, sails under the flag of two or more States, using them according to convenience.


The State of Delaware is not a nation state, it does not convey nationality.

Reference the State of Delaware's vessel registration application form:

http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/fw/Ser...AT_REG_APP.pdf

At the top of the application is stated: State of Principal Operation* DELAWARE

Thence in bold print at the start of the application is stated:


NOTICE: VESSELS CAN ONLY BE REGISTERED IN THE STATE OF PRINCIPLE USE.* (If you do not use your vessel in Delaware waters more often than waters of another state during the calendar year, you can not register your vessel in Delaware).

The form then proceeds to specifically ask:

Do you intend to operate this vessel outside of the waters of the U.S. and its territories? YES NO

Then one has to initial one's affirmation to each of the following:

I certify under penalty of perjury that I/we am/are the legal owner(s), or agents thereof, of the vessel described in this application and that Delaware if the State of Principal Operation* for this vessel.

I declare under penalty of perjury of the laws of Delaware that the foregoing is true and correct.

I also acknowledge that I must notify the Division of Fish & Wildlife within 15 days of the owner(s) change of address and / or if the vessel is sold, destroyed, abandoned, or becomes documented, or is no longer principally operated in the waters of Delaware.

NOTICE: False statements made herein are punishable by law pursuant to 11 Del. C. Section 1233.


And yes the State mistakenly uses the words, principal and principle. A common occurrence, of which I too have failed.

principal

ADJECTIVE
first in order of importance; main

principle

NOUN
a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.

Vessels that are not documented by the USCG should not wear the flag of the United States of America when traveling in international waters or foreign places or ports. Such wearing of a nation's flag denotes that the vessel has been conveyed that nation's nationality. Again Delaware does not convey nationality. Yet another instance of the confusion that The United State of America ARE, and not the United State of America IS.

All the best.

[boatman61]

Montanan.. You can whistle all you want but folk over here set up a Delaware LLC and buy their boats through the company to avoid onerous taxes in their own country..
Same with Guernsey and Jersey in the Channel Islands..
I know several Germans owning €2 to 5 million 'company' vessels flying the appropriate islands flags.. not Germany's.
Catch up with what's really happening..

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Montanan.. You can whistle all you want but folk over here set up a Delaware LLC and buy their boats through the company to avoid onerous taxes in their own country..
Same with Guernsey and Jersey in the Channel Islands..
I know several Germans owning €2 to 5 million 'company' vessels flying the appropriate islands flags.. not Germany's.
Catch up with what's really happening..

Vessel ownership such as via an LLC or a corporation is separate and a part from vessel registration / flagging.

Just as taxation and vessel titling / documentation are distinct.

A boat that is owned by an LLC does not need to register the vessel in any State and certainly not the State of which the entity has been legally chartered, unless that State is the State of Principal Use.

There may be tax advantages of holding assets in foreign entities and that is likely the purpose of doing such instead of just personally owning it.

And there may be advantages as to flagging under flags of convenience. Delaware not being a flag registry.

I suspect they maybe trying to avoid VAT or Duty, but those are generally determined on residency. Do not have knowledge of German tax matters.

All the best.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Vessel ownership such as via an LLC or a corporation is separate and a part from vessel registration / flagging.

Just as taxation and vessel titling / documentation are distinct.

A boat that is owned by an LLC does not need to register the vessel in any State and certainly not the State of which the entity has been legally chartered, unless that State is the State of Principal Use.

There may be tax advantages of holding assets in foreign entities and that is likely the purpose of doing such instead of just personally owning it.

And there may be advantages as to flagging under flags of convenience. Delaware not being a flag registry.

I suspect they maybe trying to avoid VAT or Duty, but those are generally determined on residency. Do not have knowledge of German tax matters.

All the best.

It does however give you the right to fly the US flag as its the property of a US company.. same with the Jersey LLC to fly this..

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

It does however give you the right to fly the US flag as its the property of a US company.. same with the Jersey LLC to fly this..

Yes, albeit there is the matter of the management and directors and ownership interest of the company are US citizens so as to provide USA nexus.

Citizenship of individuals is established by verifying the applicant’s social security.
In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes.
Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S;
the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens,
and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens.

In addition, at least 75% of the stock must be vested in U.S. citizens for a coastwise or fisheries endorsement.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Yes, albeit there is the matter of the management and directors and ownership interest of the company are US citizens so as to provide USA nexus.

Citizenship of individuals is established by verifying the applicant’s social security.
In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes.
Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S;
the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens,
and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens.

In addition, at least 75% of the stock must be vested in U.S. citizens for a coastwise or fisheries endorsement.

Neither US citizenship nor residency are requirements for forming a Delaware LLC or Delaware corporation. You can start a business in Delaware from anywhere in the world. In fact, many of our clients are not living in America.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Neither US citizenship nor residency are requirements for forming a Delaware LLC or Delaware corporation. You can start a business in Delaware from anywhere in the world. In fact, many of our clients are not living in America.

Correct.

The citizenship requirements would be for the management of the Delaware company as it relates only to pursuing USCG documenting of the company owned the vessel.

Delaware is the most frequently utilized state for establishing companies.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Factor

Except if you are Australian, then it doesn't matter where you sail, if you are outside Australia IT MUST BE Australian Registered. Just thought I would mention that for the many Australians who follow the forum.

A common misconception that I've run up against a few times, including with Border Force on trying to leave Australia on boats registered elsewhere and owned by an an Australian.


Shipping Registration Act 1981:


...

In this section, unregistered ship means a ship that is not registered under this Act or under the law of a foreign country.
...

17 (1) The Registrar must not:
(a) register a ship in the General Register if it is registered:
(i) in the International Register; or
(ii) under a law of a foreign country; and

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Montanan

(b) The hailing port must be a place in the United States included in the U.S. Department of Commerce's Federal Information Processing Standards Publication 55DC.

Yes. This is what it says in the Coast Guard regulations. The interesting thing is, try to find a copy of that publication. It is nowhere to be found on the Dept. of Commerce's website. You can find copies elsewhere, but the most current one I have ever found was dated 1998 -- more than 20 years ago. Most of the ones you will find are dated 1994.

So, methinks this is a case where the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. The Dept. of Commerce seems to have obsoleted that publication, but the Coast Guard continues to refer to it.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Yes. This is what it says in the Coast Guard regulations. The interesting thing is, try to find a copy of that publication. It is nowhere to be found on the Dept. of Commerce's website. You can find copies elsewhere, but the most current one I have ever found was dated 1998 -- more than 20 years ago. Most of the ones you will find are dated 1994.

So, methinks this is a case where the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. The Dept. of Commerce seems to have obsoleted that publication, but the Coast Guard continues to refer to it.

Agreed, it should be a simple matter for the USCG National Vessel Documentation Center to provide a link to an online accessible and updated version of the publication 55DC. Ah, but then that would require TWO agencies of the government to work cohesively.

I have found published the Standards for the publication and they did glean out the publication of places many of types of places for which there is no possibility of it being kept current or accurate, for example, it used to include a listing of all natural / physical places, each gully, plain, meadow, mountain top, stream, pond, desert, ridge, pass, and also developed features, oil well, water well, ranch, pond and every school, college, university, places of worship, courthouses, post office, shopping center, sports complex, park, hospital, cemetery, battlefield, industrial complexes, etc. etc.

It is a federal publication so it should be available for purchase and of course, repository public libraries would have it. But dang they do make it hard to access, especially since it is listed in the Code of Federal Regulations as the official list of places that can be called a hailing port. It is not like it is on the Best Sellers list at the local retailer.

Attached reference: Here per the Federal Registry publication of the 1994 revisions to the Standards of Document 55DC is where one can obtain a copy.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Factor

Except if you are Australian, then it doesn't matter where you sail, if you are outside Australia IT MUST BE Australian Registered. Just thought I would mention that for the many Australians who follow the forum.

Originally Posted by StuM

A common misconception that I've run up against a few times, including with Border Force on trying to leave Australia on boats registered elsewhere and owned by an an Australian.


Shipping Registration Act 1981:


...

In this section, unregistered ship means a ship that is not registered under this Act or under the law of a foreign country.
...

17 (1) The Registrar must not:
(a) register a ship in the General Register if it is registered:
(i) in the International Register; or
(ii) under a law of a foreign country; and

Reference Australian Border Force:

https://www.abf.gov.au/entering-and-...pleasure-craft


Leaving Australia
Passenger Movement Charge
You may be required to pay a Passenger Movement Charge on departure. This charge is AUD60. Children under 12 years of age are exempt.

Clearance

ABF clearance is required before you depart. This is available at any appointed port. You should contact us in advance to avoid unnecessary delay. It is an offence to depart without clearance.

Requirements for departure

Passports for all persons on board
Masters of Australian or imported vessels may be required to 'enter' the vessel for export if the craft is to be sold or positioned overseas.
Registering craft - the Registrar of Ships
Masters of foreign craft not registered under the law of a foreign country must make a declaration about the nationality of their craft when leaving Australia.

All Australian craft or vessels, irrespective of size or type whether owned by an Australian citizen or by an Australian company, must be registered before leaving Australia. State registration does not meet this requirement.

I suspect that the registry can be Australian or another nation's registry. Australia just does not want any departures of unregistered / stateless vessels.

Unregistered craft will not receive Australian diplomatic protection while overseas.

You can do this by contacting the Registrar of Ships at Australian Maritime Safety Authority.

Exemption from the requirement to be registered
https://www.amsa.gov.au/vessels-oper...r-transactions

If your Australian owned vessel is chartered to a foreign operator, the vessel can be exempted from the requirement to be registered.

A vessel can only hold registration in one country. The owner can suspend a registration while the vessel is chartered.

Temporary passes
If your vessel is entitled to be registered, but is not currently registered, it will not be allowed to leave an Australian port for an international destination. Customs officials will not issue an unregistered vessel with a certificate of clearance. A temporary pass may be issued in some circumstances. Alternatively a, provisional registration can be arranged so your vessel can start a voyage before the registration procedure has been completed.

Your vessel will not be allowed to leave a foreign port where there is an Australian diplomatic representative unless it has either been registered or issued with a provisional registration certificate.

If you are travelling between a foreign port and an Australian port (or vice versa), or from one foreign port to another, you can be issued with a temporary pass.

You can also obtain a temporary pass if you have an unregistered vessel participating in a yacht race.

Certificate of non-registration
If your vessel has never been registered on the Australian shipping register and you can provide proof that it has never been registered, you can apply for a certificate of non-registration.

Certificate of entitlement to fly flag
If you have a registered commercial ship over 24 metres in tonnage length, you must fly the Australian Red Ensign. For any other registered ship, you have the choice of flying either the Australian National Flag or the Red Ensign.

If your ship is unregistered, you can get a certificate allowing you to fly either flag.

You might be allowed to fly other flags in Australian waters including:

a state or territory flag
a flag or ensign authorised by warrant under the Flags Act 1953
the British Blue Ensign if you have a warrant valid under British law.

[larsfforsberg]

Yup, these things sure do fly off the handle. At the end of the day it appears that people can indeed own a boat in a corporation, and flag it nearly wherever a country (or State) allows this. This seems to be quite prevalent everywhere. Flags of convenience are convenient for some people, for whatever reason they have. Some countries and States have specific rules regarding registration and taxes (it's all about the Benjamins - not drug dealers and terrorists or your safety as they profess).