What is the most affordable new cruising cat??

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by Simon.Sails

Thanks John, that is a fair overview. I can only hope I actually get that 50% discount for a quality Nautitech Open 40, as that's one of my absolute favorite boats.

Alternative is a new Aventura 37 - same price range but not as fast and a bit smaller - which has pros and cons.

Simon,

we sailed a 2016 Open 40 last year. It is really a great boat. We chartered a 4B/2H version for two weeks in the Andaman Sea in July. Conditions were very very rough during our turn and the boat handled very well. On that specific boat the mainsail had to be set at the mast. Dont know if they changed that on newer modells to set sail at helm position...
The area we sailed was full with crab pots and fishing devices. The rear helm position was not an advantage for that task... LOL.

I am 1,85m tall with 115KG. The heads seemed to tight for me. Had much more space on other boats in that league.

After just three years in charter fleet, the boat showed very very much tear and wear. The faucets were heavily corroded and wooden covers in the heads delaminated due to water leaks.

Just minor things, but have to be taken care of...

Good luck with your search!
John

[Simon.Sails]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Simon,

we sailed a 2016 Open 40 last year. It is really a great boat. We chartered a 4B/2H version for two weeks in the Andaman Sea in July. Conditions were very very rough during our turn and the boat handled very well. On that specific boat the mainsail had to be set at the mast. Dont know if they changed that on newer modells to set sail at helm position...
The area we sailed was full with crab pots and fishing devices. The rear helm position was not an advantage for that task... LOL.

I am 1,85m tall with 115KG. The heads seemed to tight for me. Had much more space on other boats in that league.

After just three years in charter fleet, the boat showed very very much tear and wear. The faucets were heavily corroded and wooden covers in the heads delaminated due to water leaks.

Just minor things, but have to be taken care of...

Good luck with your search!
John

Thanks John, all things that are good to know. Even the new versions you have to head to the mast to the main up. Only the jib spinnaker seems to lead to the right helm according to the last review I've seen online. Not something that bothers me too much personally, I'm still young enough to do physical work.

I think I like the helm position, especially for single-handed docking and the feeling of sailing, but visibility to the front/immediate waters below may be an issue.. I've seen a good camera setup mounted at the mast, that could be an option I guess.

I'm interested in the 3C/2H version, the owners cabin/hull should have a larger shower area with enough space, but I'll have to see myself as I'm equally tall.

I don't think my preferred configuration will feature in many charter fleets, Nautitech seems to be generally known for quality. But certainly something to look out for.

Will charter it at least once or twice next year hopefully.

[Sailing4Jesus]

It's not only the price you will pay to purchase a sailing yacht, but much more what you will pay to keep that yacht sailing is much, much more, and the costs go up for every additional inch of her LOA. It used to be true that old quote that BOAT means BREAK OUT ANOTHER THOUSAND, not so these days. Now we need Another T to BOAAT = Break Out Another Ten Thousand.

U.S. NAVY SENIOR CHIEF RETIRED

[Yihang]

Regarding the manufacturing in developing Asia issues. Building a boat is more like making fine furniture then building a car. I find it’s mainly middle aged people doing the work in asia vs young apprentices in europe/aus/etc. Simply because anyone over 40 is probably in management roles in the west. This is probably why a lot of the asian yards are known for quality handwork, because the hands doing the work are more experienced. A boat is essentially all repetitive handwork. Whether you want to pay an 18 yo french kid twice as much to build your boat vs a 50 yo Vietnamese craftsman is up to you.

No doubt modern European factories are better at turning out things at scale. Although with automation these days it doesnt really matter where the machine is. Tesla just announced it will be exporting the shanghai built model 3/y to europe and australia.

[barnakiel]

But is it not a better thing to go with the best one I can afford?


???


If - say - I could afford:


an Open at 200,
a Gemini at 220,
a FP at 240,
a Lagoon at 250,


then wouldn't it be right to take the Lagoon?


Rather than the Open, despite the Open being the most affordable?



b.

[Piscis]

Just because its more expensive doesnt mean its "better".

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Just because its more expensive doesnt mean its "better".

You are correct, off course.


But to me most affordable = the cheapest and the cheapest is a poor forecast for quality.


I think boats are not like T-shirts that we indent to use while tinkering with oil changes.


I think with boats we want to avoid the cheapest (I mean same for same, new vs. new)



b.

[BlueSkyOne]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I think with boats we want to avoid the cheapest (I mean same for same, new vs. new)



b.

Surely with boats by going cheaper leaves you with more money to spend on getting the boat to the standard you want. I have often found it strange the snobbery within boating and i think this is what allows the manufacturers to inflate prices, and trading off this some enhance margin by relocating production elements and monetising brand legacy.

The actual quality difference between French v Vietnam build can be discussed, but what will be for sure is the true cost of the French build will be higher, so when I see cats being built in cheaper locations being sold for more then like for like European built models i ask why. I think the answer rests in the huge premium that a lot of boat buyers will put in perceived quality differential (and i bet those same people are not the ones who will only buy Bentley and Rolls Royce cars despite the same quality argument existing).

I'm not arguing that a quality differential does not exist, just that it seems many will pay a premium way in excess of the true cost of that incremental quality uplift - and this is the point that cost and value start to diverge.

[Michael Cobbe]

The catermans we saw most in the Caribbean,after an Atlantic crossing, were Prouts. some examples are:


Prout boats for sale

• Prout Snowgoose. Fort Myers, Florida, United States. ...
• Prout Snowgoose 37 Elite. Upon Request, Spain. ...
• Prout International Panther 64. Lighthouse Point, Florida, United States. ...
• Prout 72. -, Turkey. ...
• Prout 35 Snowgoose. Cape Coral, Florida, United States. ...
• Prout Quest 33 CS. ...
• Prout Escale 39. ...

Also: https://www.theyachtmarket.com/en/bo...g-boats/prout/

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyOne

Surely with boats by going cheaper leaves you with more money to spend on getting the boat to the standard you want. I have often found it strange the snobbery within boating and i think this is what allows the manufacturers to inflate prices, and trading off this some enhance margin by relocating production elements and monetising brand legacy.

The actual quality difference between French v Vietnam build can be discussed, but what will be for sure is the true cost of the French build will be higher, so when I see cats being built in cheaper locations being sold for more then like for like European built models i ask why. I think the answer rests in the huge premium that a lot of boat buyers will put in perceived quality differential (and i bet those same people are not the ones who will only buy Bentley and Rolls Royce cars despite the same quality argument existing).

I'm not arguing that a quality differential does not exist, just that it seems many will pay a premium way in excess of the true cost of that incremental quality uplift - and this is the point that cost and value start to diverge.

When you cut labor cost you have the choice of building quality at an affordable price or building cheaply at an even cheaper price. The asian and south african builders have chosen the former.

You have eastern european builders like VIKO going down the latter route-building 30 foot monos for 30k euro new. I'm sure there will soon be half price lagoon and FP clones from those makes in the future.

It all comes down to man hours. A french boat will take a lot less time to make so cost is shaved there. This is not necessarily a bad thing, some of it is done through clever engineering, but some is just cost cutting.

[barnakiel]

Yes. I will agree. Price / quality / value is always an interesting discussion. Be it boats or any other object of desire.


My sailing roots are Scandinavian / Swedish. Swedes are somewhat quality obsessed and the old white Swedes are generally well off. Hence the market is flush with quality, but relatively expensive, boats.


This causes most funny situations today when the dying away generation has no choice but to pass on their boats to the youngsters. Selling those boats is very difficult to younger, impoverished (compared to the old generation, not to a $ scale) generation, most of who are immigrants and have other objectives than slowly amassing wealth. They have kids to feed and bills to pay.



The good thing there is that boats are aplenty. So not everybody has a Najad or Rassy but everybody, also a less well do do youngster from an immigrant family - can get themselves a boat.


This much said, for reasons completely different than money and quality, very few young people get into boats. Sailing there is mostly done by the old and the middle aged. Younger people seem to spend their time following other younger people on FB and trying to get income from all possible schemes, except plain work.


b.

[mako]

Originally Posted by Yihang

You have eastern european builders like VIKO going down the latter route-building 30 foot monos for 30k euro new. I'm sure there will soon be half price lagoon and FP clones from those makes in the future.

What do you know about the quality of those Viko boats?

[Piscis]

We had a look at a Viko on the BOOT in Dusseldorf this year. If you want to buy new and have a very limited budget, i think this is the way to go. Small, very basic but functional with a straight forward design and finish. However, we never sailed one. Just from a 30 minute look...

I dont remember the CE category...any way, i wouldnt want to do ocean crossing with it. But i guess they are designed for inland waterways and coastal use, even if some may use it for more...

[Yihang]

Never seen a viko in person. But the interestingsailboats.blogspot.com mentioned the reps were reluctant to let him see the keel attachments saying it was some kind of engineering secret. But he said rest of the boat was actually better than expected.

Is varianta still around. They seem much more spartan, not as cheap but has hanse behind them. If i were going cheap i would rather have all the money spent on things that matter.

Dazcat and marsudon are not bad value because they are so spartan.

On the flip side brands like hylas and outbound probably could make a cheaper boat but their clientele would not be happy with fabric covered cabinets and cubby holes. Halberg rassy for value minded folks.

[alansmith]

The originator of this thread hasn't pinged in. I have no difference of opinion about many guys putting their 2 cents into the discussion. But what i think is we are entering into unchartered waters with the Covid pandemic. Our world changed over night. There are hundreds of cruisers stuck in places for long periods of time. Ports closed. Policing of harbors and quarantining. Where can you sail these days?

If this trend continues for a season it is one thing. If it continues for next season it is another thing. If it continues for 3,4, or 5 seasons...what then of our half million dollar boats? What i know of vaccines is that viruses change their genetic markers and create algorithm problems for the computers. Depending on our age the protection decreases rather dramatically. For example, let's talk about the regular flu season. I'm in my late 60's. Even if the algorithm was perfect for this years selection of which biotype the vaccine was to be made to...for my age group it might only be 50-60 percent effective. You are going to see the same problems with genetic mutations with Covid. It is freaking disaster what has been unleashed with this Novel virus.

I am a trailer sailor. I don't see myself crossing oceans...not that it isn't interesting to me. But the uncertainty should be in everyone's minds as to what the future holds. Where we can sail and what new limitations will be placed on the international boating communities remains to be seen. I hope for the best...i'm sure we all do.