What are the Slowest Cats?

[sandy daugherty]

Twenty years ago I looked at a 40'+ catamaran ketch at Two Hulls in Fort Lauderdale. It was an English boat with a deep Vee hull design, with six inch keelsons extending the length of the waterline. The keel had been cut off by a previous owner to reduce the draft, which had probably increased as a result of taking all the comforts of home with him. It was powered by two Mercedes diesels occupying totally black holes, from years of dirty oil spraying all over the engine compartments.

The interior was a wonder of fine wood craftsmanship, revealed at the open finger joints in the age-withered mahogany. A similarly conditioned 500# wooden grate occupied the entire area between the hulls at the bow.

Even the sails were soot stained; the smallish mizzen was about as pretty as a coal miner's cuffs.

It should be obvious to everyone that I dreamed about owning that boat for weeks until I found a far more modern catamaran to agonize over. I think those early boat hunting experiences qualify me to sympathize with today's Newbie multihullers. But this Cat Ketch certainly qualifies as one of the slowest multihulls I have ever set foot upon.

Its gone now, and I still wonder how painful owning it might have been.

[Wannabe-007]

In an attempt to get this boat back on course...

I chartered an 1997 Athena 38 this weekend... sailed around in 15-40 knots at boat speeds of 6-12 knots - but usually maxing out around 8.5. It was very interesting for me that the boat would do over half the wind speed in lightish conditions - ie. reaching with 15kts of wind, doing 8kts bs. An extra 10 knots of wind wouldn't make a huge amount of difference - ie. in 30knots we were still only 8-10kts bs
In hindsight, I should have paid much more attention, and written down my observations, but I was too busy sailing, and having a fantastic time!

The Athena 38 looks and 'feels' like it should be a LOT faster than the equivalent length lagoon. However, I have a funny feeling that they are more similar in performance than I think.

We took the Athena out in some rough conditions to see how she would do... 35+ knots and 2-3m swells was enough to see that all was very comfortable in what would ordinarily be quite uncomfy conditions. We were heading up wind on about 40 degrees AWA, and doing around 8-10 knots (with the odd jump up to 11) again my memory is a little hazy)
I have wondered how the top-heavy lagoon would have fared in the same conditions.
We also took a 39 knot bullet on the beam whilst sailing along in 25 knots. That was mildly concerning, but with 2 reefs already in the main, and a full jib, she coped just fine.

If anyone has any real practical experience to compare this to, I would love to hear how a Lagoon 38/40 (or other 'slow cat') performs in vaguely similar conditions.

[boom23]

I would also like to add that boat weights are not shown the same way on brochures. For instance, FP shows empty boat weights while Lagoon shows weight in cruising form, which, I believe, includes all tanks half full. This is not a fair comparison.

[django37]

Originally Posted by Wannabe-007

In an attempt to get this boat back on course...

If anyone has any real practical experience to compare this (Athena 38) to, I would love to hear how a Lagoon 38/40 (or other 'slow cat') performs in vaguely similar conditions.

I'm collecting results from cruising rallies & races to compare different cats. Please send me more results, so we can get better statistics.
http://www.cmid.dk/pages/Cat-races-2011-12.xls

[Barra]

Originally Posted by boom23

I would also like to add that boat weights are not shown the same way on brochures. For instance, FP shows empty boat weights while Lagoon shows weight in cruising form, which, I believe, includes all tanks half full. This is not a fair comparison.

yeah its a bugger how the marketing makes it difficult for easy comparisons but its their job to paint their respective boats in the best possible light. Nothing will beat doing your own research as after all its a big purchase. Another one to watch out for is non standard sail area comparisons ie 100% foresail triangle on one boat vs 150% on another.

That being said i dont think theres much doubt a lagoon will typically weigh considerably more than a same length FP due to different philosophies and construction techniques.

[careka]

It is a "slow" lagoon leading the ARC multidiv now.
It was a slow Lagoon 560 winning last year to, Gunboat came in first but on cor time Lagoon beat them.

and here is a film from our "slow 380" in low wind sailing. enjoy we did.

Parasailor Careka Lagoon 380 2012 - YouTube

We like the slow L380, and nexst summer we will be sailing of to the IMM 2013,
IMM 2011 regatta was won by a Lagoon 380.

(And if you load them down a lot then they are slow
but a Outreamer / Catana ++ will be slower also.

Some drive Lambo...,Ferraris ,Porches - and som just drive WV or a Ford., but they all get to the same spot. its just a matter of time, and comfort.

[smj]

Originally Posted by careka

It is a "slow" lagoon leading the ARC multidiv now.
It was a slow Lagoon 560 winning last year to, Gunboat came in first but on cor time Lagoon beat them.

and here is a film from our "slow 380" in low wind sailing. enjoy we did.

We like the slow L380, and nexst summer we will be sailing of to the IMM 2013,
IMM 2011 regatta was won by a Lagoon 380.

(And if you load them down a lot then they are slow
but a Outreamer / Catana ++ will be slower also.

Some drive Lambo...,Ferraris ,Porches - and som just drive WV or a Ford., but they all get to the same spot. its just a matter of time, and comfort.

Just because a boat comes in first on corrected time doesn't make the boat fast. The boat could be days behind the last boat in and still win on corrected time. The true performance boat will be the one at the front of the fleet. They may not win on corrected time but are still a better performing boat.Most boats that win on corrected time win because they were either sailed well or have a favorable rating.

[Barra]

[QUOTE=careka;1103315]It is a "slow" lagoon leading the ARC multidiv now.
It was a slow Lagoon 560 winning last year to, Gunboat came in first but on cor time Lagoon beat them.

QUOTE]

Get ya hand off it mate!

The lagoon this year is in front cos it motored through the low winds while the catana sailed - thats how it got in front and thats how the 560 won last year too- by motoring and then not claiming full engine hours....

If it were a race (with no motoring allowed) that heavy lagoon would be a few more spots back too imho

[clankyjeffers]

Hi guys,
Probably a late response to this thread....

I would suggest a Catalac 900 fits the bill, I passage plan for 4kts; If I go any faster than this I'm well pleased

I have to educate many monohull sailors that not all Cats are fast but not wishing to put my boat down at all, I am more than pleased with her seaworthiness and with 2 engines very manouvreable in close quarters - I'm resigned to the fact, speed isn't everything

Jeff

[dennisail]

I would first like to say I like fast cruising cats. Something like a Chris white would be my lotto boat. It has fasts and decent accommodation and looks nice IMO. The owners of cats like this which I have met usually have a dislike for boats such as a lagoon. Each to their own I say. But lets not let opinion get in the way of facts. And the fact is that lagoons are slow cats. That does not make them bad. Most owners wont pretend they are fast and will rejoice in the comforts they have compared to many much more expensive yet faster cats such as a chris white.

Since this argument came up in this thread, lets have a look at a comparison of a lagoon 400 compared to the Jeanneau 53 in terms of space. I don't think any sensible person would argue that a lagoon 400 will the faster than the J53 so maybe it might make up for its sluggishness and higher price in terms of interior space. So here is a pic I made. I assumed the L400 is 40' and the J53 is 53" when I scaled them. My area calcs are very rough and I urge others to calculate them better than I did as I only used MS paint. I did not do this to prove a point. I did it as research for myself so that I would be better informed.

From here on you can have opinions on interior layout, but it seems like the J53 has much nicer large staterooms with private heads and the all births are much larger. The saloon area is the same size but with more seating arrangements. I do not see a overview of the cockpit of the J53 but it appears as thought it would be no smaller than the L400 going by the scale of the 2 boats. However the J53 does not have a 2 story cockpit which is a nice cruising feature of the L400.

Despite the supposedly performance crippling weight of the keel, the J53 has around 8.8m2 of sail per 1000kg and the L400 only has around 8m2 per 1000kg (both with standard sails). Wetted surface area is not available but I think we can all agree it will be higher on the L400.

http://www.jeanneau.com/technical-sp...anneau-53.html

http://www.lagoon-antilles.com/image...s/spec_400.pdf

[44'cruisingcat]

I think most of us would agree that the slowest cat's will be slower than a 50 odd foot Jeanneau.

[dennisail]

But the slowest cats have the most room inside, and despite this, they still have less interior space than the comparably priced mono. I know this is getting into another mono VS cat thread but since it came up I thought I might actually put the 2 boats in the argument side by side for a comparison. It do think it is relevant though, since many potential buyers of "slow cats" may not actually realize they can have a much faster boat with more room for less price if they consider a mono.

If money was no object for me. I would buy a fast cat over a mono, but until I strike it rich I cant see the point of spending more on a slow boat with less space, especially when I actually enjoy sailing. As has been said, multihulls are inherently fast boats and when all the "fasts" have not been designed out of them are awesome "sailing" machines. I think this philosophy has remained true for many trimaran and some cat enthusiasts as can be seen in the ultimate cruising trimaran thread. But the price is small accommodation.

IMO the large platform of a cruising cat which started out as a performance oriented concept was easy to corrupt with huge weight and structures. This happened so gradually that people forgot the point of cats in the first place, and that was speed. The Winnebagorisation of cats has happened to the point where the designers of "slow cats" have had their designs made redundant by monohulls in almost every meaningful way. The same has happened to monos in terms of cramming accommodations inside, but they continued to increase in speed while this happened.

BTW I may have had a few beers before (and during) writing this

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by dennisail

I know this is getting into another mono VS cat thread but since it came up I thought I might actually put the 2 boats in the argument side by side for a comparison.

Coffin vs. Condo. I'd rather live in a smaller condo than a larger coffin, and also would rather anchor 30 ft from the beach than 30 yards

I've made, and have heard the same from others, the argument that in fact cats will make the monohulls redundant in the future, except in the racing classes where there will always be a class for antique boats.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by dennisail

But the slowest cats have the most room inside, and despite this, they still have less interior space than the comparably priced mono. I know this is getting into another mono VS cat thread but since it came up I thought I might actually put the 2 boats in the argument side by side for a comparison. It do think it is relevant though, since many potential buyers of "slow cats" may not actually realize they can have a much faster boat with more room for less price if they consider a mono.

If money was no object for me. I would buy a fast cat over a mono, but until I strike it rich I cant see the point of spending more on a slow boat with less space, especially when I actually enjoy sailing. As has been said, multihulls are inherently fast boats and when all the "fasts" have not been designed out of them are awesome "sailing" machines. I think this philosophy has remained true for many trimaran and some cat enthusiasts as can be seen in the ultimate cruising trimaran thread. But the price is small accommodation.

IMO the large platform of a cruising cat which started out as a performance oriented concept was easy to corrupt with huge weight and structures. This happened so gradually that people forgot the point of cats in the first place, and that was speed. The Winnebagorisation of cats has happened to the point where the designers of "slow cats" have had their designs made redundant by monohulls in almost every meaningful way. The same has happened to monos in terms of cramming accommodations inside, but they continued to increase in speed while this happened.

BTW I may have had a few beers before (and during) writing this

As a Hunter owner you should be comparing a 50+ft Hunter with the Lagoon 400.

Hunter 50 weighs 40,000lb and draws 7ft . Is there a lot of difference in price? One could say it has been Winnebagoised also.

Is making any vessel comfortable to live on for an extended period a problem? For most full time cruisers their vessel is there home and nobody wants to live in a coffin.

On a course I did recently went aboard 3 monohulls two of 46 and 50ft and after climbing down into them I know exactly why I will get a cat.
The HR46 was ever so cramped and squeezy.

I know many who don't mind and everyone has their likes and preferences.
Have another beer for me.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by ArtM

Coffin vs. Condo. I'd rather live in a smaller condo than a larger coffin, and also would rather anchor 30 ft from the beach than 30 yards

I've made, and have heard the same from others, the argument that in fact cats will make the monohulls redundant in the future, except in the racing classes where there will always be a class for antique boats.

As long as there are sailors who relish sailing (not RVing) there will always be monohulls.

Dennissailing above took my earlier comparison and made a much more elegant argument of why monos are often an equal or better cruising choice at least in the production realm. Furthermore, there is no comparison to the payload capacity of a Jeanneau 53 and lagoon 400, especially as relates to effects on speed.