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Old 12-10-2019, 23:22   #91
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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Mira Woods 4 the world!

Awesome Cockpit arrangement!
I didn't know that there was a Mira Woods "Gunboat" edition

Neat, very interesting, thanks for posting! That is a very cool boat for someone.
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Old 15-10-2019, 02:28   #92
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Here is a interesting boat. It might be old news to you but I haven't seen it before.

I'm not saying it's a good boat (and the price is crazy), but at least interesting in terms of modified Wharrams and it does have some pedigree.

This is not a Wharram, but a 65ft Wharram Inspired Nigel Irens custom cat. Originally built for day charter from a Florida hotel I think.

Some of the specs seem a bit surprising, although I guess the volume is higher (although why if it was built for day charter?).

Length, Beam, and LWL are almost the same as the Wharram Pahi 63, but "Sandpiper" weighs 50-100% more (depending on which specs you read) but has 10% less sail area.

Modified V hulls with flat bottoms.



There are a few existing threads and links to peruse:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...cat-73973.html

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...er-64-2914017/

CATAMARAN MOTOR YACHT

Wharram as drawnby Nigel Irens – Wharram Builders and Friends

Overall I'm not convinced. Looks pretty though and it's always interesting to look at someone else's ideas.

David from Boatsmith (who build custom Wharrams) wasn't that impressed either:

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This boat was at the Miami show last year. Having an ongoing affair with Wharrams I did check her out. The fwd ladder is very agricultural. Functional maybe, but not on my boat. Each mast has two electric halyard winches . They are on opposite sides of the boat. You can,t reach them both at the same time. The large open central deck area is like a village square, but the foreboom is on a fixed gooseneck which prvents the boom from being raised up to provide a ridgepole for a deck awning. You have to get to your knees to cross under te boom. There is not comfortable seat anywhere on deck. The seats in the backwere 2x10s IIRC. There are two guest cabins and a crews cabin. To me the boat is layed out in a very starnge way. I don,t see it as a day charter boat or a cruiser or a liveaboard. It looks very cool from afar but the gleam dims upon closer inspection. Of course this is all just my opinion. It,s big and expensive but IMO this is an odd boat and will require significant work to make it a really suitable boat for most people.
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Old 15-10-2019, 08:18   #93
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Odd that they claim it's a fiberglass boat when it's actually plywood covered in glass.
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Old 15-10-2019, 08:59   #94
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

At any rate I would much rather have the Ariki 48 for sale at $300,000 on Yachtworld. . Built in 2015 and actually fiberglas, it would be a much better boat for most purposes.
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Old 15-10-2019, 09:30   #95
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Agreed.

I think this falls into the interesting but not necessarily better category.
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Old 15-10-2019, 15:46   #96
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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Odd that they claim it's a fiberglass boat when it's actually plywood covered in glass.
Glass over ply is the new "composite" don't you know ?
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Old 17-10-2019, 00:09   #97
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Looks like it was commissioned by someone who could afford Nigel Irens' rates, told him exactly what and how he wanted it, and got what he asked for.

I remember seeing pictures of the (professional) build, a massive and expensive job. No idea how it sails.....?
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Old 10-09-2021, 11:47   #98
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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But access to the water always bothered me since why be on a boat and have difficulty accessing the water? To be honest, I'm not that impressed with water access on most modern cats either. Even with square sterns and swim steps you still end up with a very small and limited space that is also not very good for dinghy boarding either.


Most (modern) Wharrams are actually an improvement in that respect. Again it is basic but most of them have the entire back deck fold down into the water which is already better, and with a few tweaks could be amazing. here is an example:


As a diver, I'm totally in love with this design, and I'm so frustrated that production cats don't incorporate it. I've been looking at cats for years, and one of the first things I do is look at the scoops and hope there is a diver accessible platform.

I just had a thought: What about modifying the front of a production cat to have a similar ramp? Away from the prop(s), made of (slatted wood?).



Would this work? Would you need to do both sides to keep balance? What would be the issues? When I sail, one of my primary focuses will be diving new spots as I travel.
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Old 10-09-2021, 12:21   #99
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

...thinking back to our Wharram days it occurs to me, that we didn't mind a lack of "access to the water" so much, as "far too much water over the deck", when the going was good or upwind in a breeze...
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Old 10-09-2021, 15:24   #100
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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Originally Posted by zeitgeist View Post


As a diver, I'm totally in love with this design, and I'm so frustrated that production cats don't incorporate it. I've been looking at cats for years, and one of the first things I do is look at the scoops and hope there is a diver accessible platform.

I just had a thought: What about modifying the front of a production cat to have a similar ramp? Away from the prop(s), made of (slatted wood?).



Would this work? Would you need to do both sides to keep balance? What would be the issues? When I sail, one of my primary focuses will be diving new spots as I travel.
Yes it could work. The big day charter / party catamarans in the Caribbean often have forward ramps / steps so they can but the bows on th beach and load / unload guests.

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Old 11-09-2021, 06:39   #101
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Generally

If you can't see the simplicity of the James Wharram Designs for what it is....

it will be tough to explain. For those looking for that it is perfect or close to enough to modified...

Specifically the lashings make a lot of sense for a simple, safe, and repairable.

Simple
Requires it requires 3 components:

rope
crossbaem
hull

Safe
The rope is sized that. If the rope should break it will have to break in multiple lashing wraps to cause serious trouble. Each lash will be contorted under different loads during the same event. More lashings more redundency.

Repair/Adapt

They use almost no specialized parts. The only things you need to buy from a chandlery is rope, resin, fiberglass. The build plans I believe specifically state at one point... the you can figure out the rest.

A simple design component that I believe goes under recognized is the Wharram Wingsail.

https://www.wharram.com/articles/how...m-wingsail-rig

If you don't see the value in that sail rig... Wharram's aren't for you but maybe you don't like chicken livers either.

Ben
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Old 11-09-2021, 07:15   #102
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass View Post

A simple design component that I believe goes under recognized is the Wharram Wingsail.

https://www.wharram.com/articles/how...m-wingsail-rig

If you don't see the value in that sail rig... Wharram's aren't for you but maybe you don't like chicken livers either.

Ben
Loved the write up on the wingsail, I wonder what kind of fabric was used for the “pocket” that goes around the mast as it looks different than the rest of the sail.
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Old 11-09-2021, 07:26   #103
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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Loved the write up on the wingsail, I wonder what kind of fabric was used for the “pocket” that goes around the mast as it looks different than the rest of the sail.
Good catch I should add Dacron too the list of chandlery goods.

I believe it's all builders choice but Dacron would be as complicated as it would require. I'm sure the design would work with less.

The sloppiest material possible is what I'm thinking.
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Old 11-09-2021, 07:51   #104
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass View Post
Generally

If you can't see the simplicity of the James Wharram Designs for what it is....

it will be tough to explain. For those looking for that it is perfect or close to enough to modified...

Specifically the lashings make a lot of sense for a simple, safe, and repairable.

Simple
Requires it requires 3 components:

rope
crossbaem
hull

Safe
The rope is sized that. If the rope should break it will have to break in multiple lashing wraps to cause serious trouble. Each lash will be contorted under different loads during the same event. More lashings more redundency.

Repair/Adapt

They use almost no specialized parts. The only things you need to buy from a chandlery is rope, resin, fiberglass. The build plans I believe specifically state at one point... the you can figure out the rest.

A simple design component that I believe goes under recognized is the Wharram Wingsail.

https://www.wharram.com/articles/how...m-wingsail-rig

If you don't see the value in that sail rig... Wharram's aren't for you but maybe you don't like chicken livers either.

Ben

The suggestion that the wrappings provide "redundancy" is absurd, though it seems highly unlikely that a strand would break on a properly done lashing. One broken strand renders the entire lashing failed. They are in no way individually secured.



The flexible beams have zero benefit in reality compared to rigid beam systems, and a number of liabilities. Those liabilities include not allowing for a cabin or pod that is integrated into the hull(s) because of flex, and prevents a mast from being really solidly stayed. This is probably the reason for the development of the Wharram Wing Sail, because that flex is not ideal with a Bermuda rig (I'm no fan of modern Bermuda). It's a good simple design, one of a few good ideas from Jame Wharram. The canoe sterns are said to be the cause of the famous hobbyhorsing issue, but in any case they reduce useable internal space, adding length and material that serves no real purpose. Even the larger Wharrams have narrow cramped interiors, and the lack of any leeway prevention other than the hulls themselves makes a bridge deck cabin unworkable... something that I consider important for anybody but fair weather only sailors unless you are a glutton for punishment.... I also see no benefit in the slatted decking, and definitely not in the cockpit

People have converted Wharrams to rigid beams with good results....and why shouldn't it yield good results. It is one more step away from primitive log rafts toward modern design. At least one person, probably more, has installed an "off center board" with good results, improved pointing, less leeway.

There are a LOT of design improvements Wharram has chosen not to incorporate into his designs for no apparent reason except to maintain his signature style.


On the other hand if you look at Richard Woods designs, a man who worked with James Wharram for a long time and parted company to produce much improved catamaran designs, you can see some of the many possible improvements. One of his earliest designs Mira shows it's Wharram heritage in his deep V hulls, but incorporates some HUGE improvements with a transom stern, rigid beams, and wings in the main cabins expanding the interior out over the bridge deck.... which is still open but is solid. Look at other designers........They have all moved onward, NONE seeing any value in many of Wharram's signature features. In the boat building world, people copy good ideas and build on them........ how many Wharram features are compelling enough that other designers have copied them? None I can think of, The ramp is a great idea, but I can't think of anybody who has copied that.


All that said, Wharrams have proven to be solid seaworthy boats, but that doesn't mean that others are not, or that there is not a LOT of room for improvement.
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Old 11-09-2021, 08:10   #105
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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The suggestion that the wrappings provide "redundancy" is absurd, though it seems highly unlikely that a strand would break on a properly done lashing. One broken strand renders the entire lashing failed. They are in no way individually secured.
Before calling it absurd one should consider why any knot with rope holds.
Ask what is the minimal number of wraps/lashes need to happen before a know is secure. If one was genuine curious they would then replicate the process with toothpicks and dental floss.

Otherwise I feel that one just wants to argue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by owly View Post

The flexible beams have zero benefit in reality compared to rigid beam systems,
and a number of liabilities. Those liabilities include not allowing for a cabin or pod that is integrated into the hull(s) because of flex, and prevents a mast from being really solidly stayed.
If one is curious about the downsides of a rigid hull on YouTube for Zingaro. Same era design as a Wharram.

Unfortunately modern building techniques are so shoddy and the design so fragile it's tough to compare.

I'm sure one could find YouTube videos of modern catamarans with stress fractures at the exact locations the lashing and beams would flex.


Quote:
Originally Posted by owly View Post

This is probably the reason for the development of the Wharram Wing Sail, because that flex is not ideal with a Bermuda rig (I'm no fan of modern Bermuda). It's a good simple design, one of a few good ideas from Jame Wharram.
I'm sure you are correct and in fact JWD may be quoted saying as much. I'm not sure. Hanneke Boon gets design credit for the sail with Wharram.

I will say nothing of there hull design although the latest model the Mana 24 has a newer hull form.

https://www.wharram.com/self-build-boats/mana24
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