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Old 05-07-2019, 01:42   #46
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Teleman.
Love it ! [emoji106][emoji106]
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Old 05-07-2019, 07:26   #47
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Just thought I'd add some fun here before replying to some more of the posts. Owly did mention potential for improvement...



In case anyone isn't familiar with Boatsmith (Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: boatsmith), he is a Florida boat builder who when he has time also builds Wharrams. His recently did a composite Ariki 48 (search Boatsmith Ariki 48 in google if interested). He also seems to have a good sense of humour
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:21   #48
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

@owly, here is something else for you to look at until I get my other posts prepared

catamaran Tortuga

catamaranTortuga

https://www.youtube.com/user/0marijke/videos

This is what the boat used to look like:





And what it looks like now:



More photos here too: https://www.wharram.com/site/news/20...l-event-report

This is one of the nicest bridgedeck conversions that I know of. This boat is based in the Netherlands.

In general though I tend to think about designs with tropical cruising in mind though, so actually I prefer an open or minimalistic design (with a hard roof of course) to keep the air moving, make use of the full open deck space, and not have the view be blocked when sitting in the cockpit.

I also find that a lot of catamaran cockpits end up too small, because of the bridgedeck, and often because amenities are duplicated - 2 dining tables (1 inside 1 outside) seem to be one of the worst offenders on a small boat. Neither ends up being big enough.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:27   #49
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Also, did you know that there was/is a guy called Steve Turner who specialised in converted Wharrams to fixed beams and add bridge decks? All this is just for your info really.

Sleipnir 35ft for sale, UK (ref. 1353) - Scott Brown Multihulls

https://www.google.com/search?q=stev...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:56   #50
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Oh how the name Wharram gives rise to passion. I have been sailing and maintaining my tiki 30 for eighteen years Now about those lashings. Being that the the boat is in fact a plywood boat she does require a fair amount of maintenance. I can easily remove one beam at a time and set it up on a bench and give it a good going over little bit of glass and paint on back on the boat. The lashing are really tight with thousands of pounds of combined breaking strength. As for the rudder lashing well all I can say is that they are ingenious. You really have to see them. As the rudder travels side to side you would expect to see some movement or chafing if the lines but there isnít any at all. I paint mine topsides and bottom paint doesnít even flake off Works perfectly. Last time I was out I had 12 /15kt of wind on a beam reach doing an easy 12/15 kt. You know the lashing were creaking and popping on the bigger waves the whole rig is hummin. Waves splash up though the web tramp. When the wind and waves and boat move together like one is just fantastic. The manifestation of James Wharramís inspiration
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Old 05-07-2019, 21:45   #51
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

I think the greatest lessen Wharram taught is there is a big difference between the requirements of a racing sailboat and one built for simple pleasure and cruising. I wish I had learned this lessen earlier. After I began sailing my vessel on a markedly reduced mast with a gaff rig main my stress levels went way down.

It was not the speed from A to B that mattered the most to me.
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:52   #52
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

I have a Wharram tiki 38 and settled on this design for many reasons. I have sailed most of my life since i was a wee lad and have sailed across oceans and bays during that time in all size and design of boat. I have back ground in Marine Engineering. All this influences my decision to go for the 38.

The small size of the sails, on the gaff schooner rig, means they are easier to handle, the large open deck makes things safe to do, without going near the edge or up onto a large cabin top, thus less likely to go over the side, (I do clip on to prevent it just the same).

The general simplicity of the design means I won't be spending my retirement doing what i did for a career, fixing boats. What repairs that may be necessary are well with in the capability of hand tools and most craftsmen. Complexity adds cost, go simple get more sailing.

As for the lashings, they are brilliant. Don't over look the fact that you can easily demount and disassemble the whole boat into its constituent pieces. This means it can go any where in the world, even if you don't want to sail it there. I can all fit in to 2 40 foot high cube sea container, the cost of shipping is much less that that of shipping a similar length 1 piece cat.

Other have already pointed out other advantages.
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Old 07-07-2019, 17:41   #53
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Great Stuff........ What a project!! I can't imagine doing what they did with what they started with..... at least they knew the boat, having built it originally.



H.W.





Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
@owly, here is something else for you to look at until I get my other posts prepared

catamaran Tortuga

catamaranTortuga

https://www.youtube.com/user/0marijke/videos

This is what the boat used to look like:





And what it looks like now:



More photos here too: https://www.wharram.com/site/news/20...l-event-report

This is one of the nicest bridgedeck conversions that I know of. This boat is based in the Netherlands.

In general though I tend to think about designs with tropical cruising in mind though, so actually I prefer an open or minimalistic design (with a hard roof of course) to keep the air moving, make use of the full open deck space, and not have the view be blocked when sitting in the cockpit.

I also find that a lot of catamaran cockpits end up too small, because of the bridgedeck, and often because amenities are duplicated - 2 dining tables (1 inside 1 outside) seem to be one of the worst offenders on a small boat. Neither ends up being big enough.
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Old 07-07-2019, 18:50   #54
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by James McM View Post
I have a Wharram tiki 38 and settled on this design for many reasons. I have sailed most of my life since i was a wee lad and have sailed across oceans and bays during that time in all size and design of boat. I have back ground in Marine Engineering. All this influences my decision to go for the 38.

The small size of the sails, on the gaff schooner rig, means they are easier to handle, the large open deck makes things safe to do, without going near the edge or up onto a large cabin top, thus less likely to go over the side, (I do clip on to prevent it just the same).

The general simplicity of the design means I won't be spending my retirement doing what i did for a career, fixing boats. What repairs that may be necessary are well with in the capability of hand tools and most craftsmen. Complexity adds cost, go simple get more sailing.

As for the lashings, they are brilliant. Don't over look the fact that you can easily demount and disassemble the whole boat into its constituent pieces. This means it can go any where in the world, even if you don't want to sail it there. I can all fit in to 2 40 foot high cube sea container, the cost of shipping is much less that that of shipping a similar length 1 piece cat.

Other have already pointed out other advantages.

The boat has that general simplicity you mention......... and I'm 100% for that.



Lashings offer only one thing....... demountability. They definitely are NOT simpler or lower maintenance than fixed rigid beams. The demountability generally speaking on a larger boat like the T38 only are of benefit when the builder wants to move the boat from the shop to the boat ramp. Once it's in the water, very few of these are ever going to be demounted unless the beams start to fail or the structure they attach to does, and yet they take periodic replacement and tensioning........ Properly designed and installed rigid beams never require any service whatsoever........nor are they known for failure of the beams or connections except in a very few poorly engineered factory boats........How many Simpsons, Kelsalls, or Woods or Kohlers have ever had beam issue...... even in survival storms like the Queen's Birthday storm? I've read of at least two front beam failures on Wharrams......... in major storm conditions of course. So let's not pretend that it's an inherently superior design.



I'm very much pro simplicity...... The ultimate simplicity is systems that do not exist..... Lack of inboard engines for example. Outboards are simpler, and better IMHO for a true sailing catamaran. A water system that is 100% manual trumps (bad choice of words ..) one that is plumbed and pumped, and has a water heater, and a pressure shower, etc. A "bucket and chuck it" head or a composting head beats a Lavac and holding tank. A simple two burner cooktop, Origo or propane, beats a full range. A cutting board and good knife beats a food processor, and a whisk and wooden spoon beats an electric mixer. A pressure cooker is simple and a huge asset. Electric appliances only make sense if one is trying to burn solar power, but then that generally means having an inverter and 120 volt wiring. Refrigeration systems seem to be maintenance intensive..........but a freezer is so beneficial that it is hard to argue with. Likewise, watermaker technology is so simple and easy to build and maintain that considering the issues of obtaining, hauling, and stowing water, and confirming it's quality, it would be hard to argue the case for not having one......... does one want to be using scarce local water in a place like Kiribati for example? and what sorts of dead critters (and live ones) are in the cistern?

How much "stuff" does on need? The people on the condo cats expect ever convenience of home......... a big screen TV and DVD player, surround sound, hot and cold running water, a washer and drier, flush toilets, a jacuzzi and a shower with fresh water, a full queen size bed, and on and on.


The name of the game to me is reducing things to practical minimums that make sense............ cost benefit analysis essentially, but cost includes complexity and maintenance. What does it offer me, and what is the "price" I have to pay. Once the boat is in the water lashings offer me absolutely nothing. They make the gaff rig of Wharram wing sail or biplane cambered junk rig desirable options over the Bermuda rig for obvious structural reasons...... but I'm not a fan of the Bermuda rig anyway.



The case for the safety of the wide open working deck is a hard one to argue with, but perhaps one should look at the rig and how much deck work is needed....especially in rough conditions.



To me, the shelter from the storm, offered by an encompassing bridge deck cabin that allows me to see around, step out into the cockpit easily, or down in the galley or head without getting wet is worth a great deal...... and that doesn't mean being to stand up straight in the bridge deck cabin. The Fontaine Pajot Maldives 32 offered a lift up top that neatly addressed this as well as ventilation.... Is that complex of simple?


In any case the choices we make, and our own cost benefit analysis, weather it's based on dollar cost, or other "cost", are extremely personal. Your intended mission is not the same as mine, nor is your expected area of operation. It's easy to say, "this is what a Wharram is and what it is for........live with it", but expanding that mission is NOT sacrilege, or an insult to the designer....it's an affirmation of the potential and fundamental soundness of his work in it's ability to go beyond the original intent.




H.W.
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Old 07-07-2019, 21:37   #55
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by owly View Post
The boat has that general simplicity you mention......... and I'm 100% for that.

To me, the shelter from the storm, offered by an encompassing bridge deck cabin that allows me to see around, step out into the cockpit easily, or down in the galley or head without getting wet is worth a great deal......

H.W.
This is the one thing I can completely agree with. If I ever have another Wharram I will want a bridge deck that allows me to enter the hulls w/o going outside or getting wet. I also like the large queen sized birth in that structure.
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Old 13-07-2019, 09:45   #56
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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This is the one thing I can completely agree with. If I ever have another Wharram I will want a bridge deck that allows me to enter the hulls w/o going outside or getting wet. I also like the large queen sized birth in that structure.

I'm looking at cost............ What can I get for the money. Every dollar I spend on the boat is a dollar I do not have in my cruising kitty, and voyaging is what it's about, not competing with the "Joneses". If a Wharram can be had for 30K, and something else for 120k that might be exactly what I want......... extremely unlikely.... that's 90K difference, and I can go for quite a few years on 90K the way I live. It's pretty simple math. The Wharram can be converted fairly easily IMHO to rigid beam........ I have some ideas how to do this strongly and efficiently. Once converted to rigid, a cabin structure is pretty simple stuff. As a mostly solo sailor (solo person)... that cabin can give me a great protected watch station, and as you say a good berth that is just a step from the cockpit. I sleep in a recliner anyway, so waking up to take a look-see at intervals using the windows / ports and a look at the AIS and radar doesn't need to involve a huge interruption requiring you to wind back down from climbing the companionway into the cold rainy night........... I see fatigue as the #1 safety issue sailing. If you are tired or exhausted, you will not make good decisions. That is far beyond dispute.

I imagine a T38 with a biplane junk rig as the starting point........ Rigidized beams as the first step, and a good cabin as the third. Just imagine how miserable living aboard a Wharram in a place like Port Angeles, Friday Harbor, Port Townsend, etc in winter would be without a good bridge deck cabin........ though it would be stupid not to be someplace like NaWiliwili or Radio Bay, or Bahia Tortugas, Fatu Hiva, etc....


Lacking bottomless resources like everybody else here......... ;-)


H.W.
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Old 26-07-2019, 03:51   #57
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

@owly

Here is some more food for thought bridgedeck wise:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/twee...iCRkYkV3WeOHfw



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Old 26-07-2019, 04:30   #58
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
@owly

Here is some more food for thought bridgedeck wise:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/twee...iCRkYkV3WeOHfw



Definitely potential for lovely boat there , needs a bit of paint !!
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Old 26-07-2019, 05:09   #59
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

Quote:
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Definitely potential for lovely boat there , needs a bit of paint !!
Yes I don't think that this particular modification is particularly well executed, however some of the general idea might be worth consideration.

This is really appears to be a hard top on steroids rather than an actual bridge deck.
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Old 26-07-2019, 08:19   #60
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Re: Wharram Thoughts

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Yes I don't think that this particular modification is particularly well executed, however some of the general idea might be worth consideration.

This is really appears to be a hard top on steroids rather than an actual bridge deck.



Interesting....... It clearly is not intended to be a full weather enclosure... looks like a compromise to accommodate the independent hulls. In rough conditions, seawater would still sluice through, but the combings would keep the hulls dry, and the design retains the dubious advantage of lashed construction......... something I consider a liability, rather than an asset...... How many big Wharrams have ever been disassembled for transport after being in the water...... I'd wager damn few. The lashing system has proven adequate, even rugged, it has had it's problems.... every system does..... It has not proven in any way superior to rigid connections structurally. Up to about 30', it perhaps makes sense to be able to break the boat down and take it home for the winter........ That of course is an arbitrary number that will be different for different people...... Above that breaking point, wherever it is, the boat will likely stay in the water, or dry storage, and will never be broken down.

Rigid beams are the price of entry into the next level.... catamarans that have crew shelter and protection suitable for sailing in "all" parts of the world, most times of the year, fair weather or foul. No modern designer has followed James Wharram's flexible beam idea, though a number of designs still break down and are open deck.


H.W.
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