Weighing down performance cats

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I am happy with my Lagoon Catamaran and I do know the Catanas and the Outremars too, why are you so upset?

I checked them out and opted then for the Lagoon for many reason. I am not saying Lagoons are faster, but the difference is not that big as you think.

I've sailed in company with Lagoons and similar boats many times. I know exactly how big the difference is.

On a 700 mile passage we pulled out over 160 miles on a Fontaine Pajot. And in light wind the difference can be bigger.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So you had to modify the bed and throw away the original cheap 100 mm foam mattress. Thanks for making my point for me!

I am not saying, Lagoons are perfect, there are lots of things that can be improved. They are not built with cruisers in mind.

We removed the cut out corner of the bed in the starboard hull, extended the plywood below the mattress and also removed the small shelf left to make a big sqare area, and added a straight board instead of the curved one at the foot of the bed. Also fitted storage shelves below the berths to store stuff.

We wanted to replace all the used mattresses from the first owner and charter usage anyway, as we also replaced the cushions outside with thicker and more comfy ones and also the head seats with soft closing ones.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I am happy with my Lagoon Catamaran and I do know the Catanas and the Outremars too, why are you so upset?

I checked them out and opted then for the Lagoon for many reason. I am not saying Lagoons are faster, but the difference is not that big as you think.

For as much as one can believe the data off Multihull dynamics I did a quick look up comparing Catana 44, Outremer 45 and Lagoon 450. The base speed calcs were:


C44 9.86 Kn Texel handicap 138

O45 10.44 Kn T 130

L450 9.82 Kn T 141


So really hardly any difference to the Catana +0.4%
and Outremer + 6.3%


So on a day sail over 10 hrs at base speed the O45 would arrive 37minutes earlier. On an Atlantic crossing of 2000 miles it would arrive 1/2 a day earlier, in theory anyway, but in the absence of anything other than anecdotal stories probably a reasonable gauge.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I am not saying, Lagoons are perfect, there are lots of things that can be improved. They are not built with cruisers in mind.

So why make the "Winnebago vs camper trailer" comment?

[tp12]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I am happy with my Lagoon Catamaran and I do know the Catanas and the Outremars too, why are you so upset?

I checked them out and opted then for the Lagoon for many reason. I am not saying Lagoons are faster, but the difference is not that big as you think.

Only in your head, I'm afraid.

[Dave_S]

This thread had me thinking so I had a look for a review and found this one http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ew-146203.html the owner talks about his experiences on their new L400 S2 after a year and 6,000nm, he comments it sails on it's best angles at half true wind speed.

[CatNewBee]

Hi,

No, it's usually faster than half wind speed most of the time. Ours is over-loaded and heavy but moves quite well. We have sailed 2000nm in 5 weeks in the Med and Adriatic sea up to now in various conditions, light winds and strong winds on passages etc.

Sea state is also one issue when it comes to speed. With the Code 0 and square top main out you can sail at almost true wind speed on beam reach in low wind. It really depends on the wave size. We have copper coat as anti-fouling, that is quite hard and slippery and also folding props.

She points up to 47°, tacking at 120° is normal, so windward performance is not good, but expected because of the hull shape.

I agree with most of the findings, including the bilge pump design and the over-pressure valve of the water heater, same here, added piezo-buzzers for the alarm. Also annoying is the push-button drain pump in the showers. I will replace it with an automatic drain pump.

The head up corner locker in the galley I also opened up, added hinges and a knob to meet the design of the others, also added shelves in the lockers to get better organized, re-modeled the galley and opened up the corner compartment under the counter top, I use the down part now for storage of liquids for cleaning and maintenance and the upper part as garbage bin from the top. I also changed the hinges of the nav-table and the vanity table to piano hinges. The lagoon style always bites stuff when closing.

There are many small improvements that make the boat more livable and more organized.

Maybe one day I will write a new thread about maintenance, refit and improvements on the 400S2...

Can't wait to go on board again and set sails.

[catsketcher]

I would be very wary of the handicaps stated in some sites. There is a lot to be gained by a race crew pushing flat out in the ARC and comparing these results to a family cruising their own different breed of boat.

We had a race where owners were racing their own boats in Lake Macquarie a few weeks ago. Not lots of cats around but in the large cat class was a Spirited 380 which sailed significantly faster than the slightly longer Fontaine Pajot. I saw some parts of the race and both boats were pretty well sailed. The Turrisimo was behind the Spirited.

The fastest big cats were the three beamed racers like Foxy - a stretched 8 metre racer. She took just over 3 hours for the 30 mile course, which had a fair share of windward sailing.

HCW Long One Lap Dash 2019 - Race 1 Results

Then at 4 hours was the Spirited 380. A performance cat with daggerboards and well sailed. She beat the longer Fontaine Pajot and Seawind 1160 by over one hour. So the not so condo minikeel cruisers are about 25% slower than the daggerboard cruiser.

How a higher and wider hulled Lagoon or Leopard would go is only a guess but I would like to see some more results. I have seen some Lagoons race in Pittwater on twilights but I can't find any results. I would assume they would be slower than the FP and Seawind. So that means more than 25% slower than a daggerboard cat around the bouys, but I need to find some results.

No motors were allowed and the boats had to sail high to get around points and promontories, so a high sailing boat with good windward performance will be highly rewarded in a race like this 30 miler. But it gives some indication of the performance of some different cats with no race crew vs family crew issues that you may get in the results from the ARC.

HCW Long One Lap Dash 2019 - Race 1 Results

cheers

Phil

[CatNewBee]

Lagoons will loose on windward sailing, no doubt about it. But as a cruiser on passages with the trades behind or abeam, they perform surprisingly well / well enough. They are not built for racing anyway.

As a cruiser you are more at anchor or on down wind passages, than out sailing to windward. If you have to, you better motor-sail.

[rom]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Lagoons will loose on windward sailing, no doubt about it. But as a cruiser on passages with the trades behind or abeam, they perform surprisingly well / well enough. They are not built for racing anyway.

As a cruiser you are more at anchor or on down wind passages, than out sailing to windward. If you have to, you better motor-sail.

Please name the lagoon, I don't want mine to be associated with an L400 performance wise


seriously everyone, please try not to mix up everything, a L470 is faster than a new L46, a L380 is much faster than the newer L39, and the same goes for a FP bahia46 vs. a FP saona47.


The good news for the OP is that some of these older "condo" (lagoon, fp, leopard) have very good performances (by today standards) and can be purchased second hand for a good price !

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by rom

Please name the lagoon, I don't want mine to be associated with an L400 performance wise


seriously everyone, please try not to mix up everything, a L470 is faster than a new L46, a L380 is much faster than the newer L39, and the same goes for a FP bahia46 vs. a FP saona47.


The good news for the OP is that some of these older "condo" (lagoon, fp, leopard) have very good performances (by today standards) and can be purchased second hand for a good price !

I see what you mean...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZeoLzA_6Jw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXAQQmks29Y

[Dave_S]

Nice boats, well worth watching.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

Nice boats, well worth watching.

At $1.5 million for a 2001 model it'd want to be
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...on-67-3465880/

Originally Posted by tp12

, sell your Lagoon and get a performance cat. You'll have to go bigger and/or deal with a smaller payload but you'll get the pace you seem so keen to delude yourself into believing you have.

That was our plan but it had to have a well ventilated cabin with overhangs to keep sun off of glass and able to have windows open in the rain.
It also had to be big enough to have a cabin with walk around king size bed as the wife has had enough of climbing up into a bed and sleeping against bulkheads.
Not even sure if there is such a cat out there.
Whatever it was would also have to be able to carry a 15ft tender with a decent sized motor.

I soon realised I was looking for a very expensive unicorn.

Changed tack and went the way we did for a fraction of the cost and don't have to worry about overloading. She actually handles better with an extra several tonne on board.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

At $1.5 million for a 2001 model it'd want to be
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...on-67-3465880/



That was our plan but it had to have a well ventilated cabin with overhangs to keep sun off of glass and able to have windows open in the rain.
It also had to be big enough to have a cabin with walk around king size bed as the wife has had enough of climbing up into a bed and sleeping against bulkheads.
Not even sure if there is such a cat out there.
.

Yep.

https://www.gunboat.com/gunboat68interior/?fbclid=IwAR0GVO-_Zrn_UsDySdqs1srFSQ4hdGbGahWHxXb2APi0Jg2C7FmNimD_g 10

Looks reasonably comfortable for a camper trailer. Not cheap though.

[44'cruisingcat]

I've been discovering that what the weight is made of can make a huge difference to the impact on performance.

10kg (probably less) of barnacles slows us down more than 400kg of water + 300kg of fuel. Much more!

Edit: I'm sure we're all now waiting for someone to jump in and tell us how their Lagoon can carry 5T of barnacles with no change in performance.....