Weighing down performance cats

[Cayuse51]

We will complete our circumnavigation in our Outremer 51 soon. We do not have a diesel generator (Watt & Sea and solar only), but we have sailed most of the way with 4 people and all the associated stuff and the boat is still very fast. There is no comparison to the charter cats with wide hulls. They get loaded up as well and become even slower.

[rom]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Because the fast cats are not fast only because they are lighter but because their hulls are slimmer and they carry more sail.

Outremers carry less sail than equivalent size Lagoons. This is one of the advantages of lighter cats, they need less sail area and are therefore easier to handle.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Cayuse51

We will complete our circumnavigation in our Outremer 51 soon. We do not have a diesel generator (Watt & Sea and solar only), but we have sailed most of the way with 4 people and all the associated stuff and the boat is still very fast. There is no comparison to the charter cats with wide hulls. They get loaded up as well and become even slower.

not really, Lagoons are quite fast and regulary well performing at the ARC, despite they are condomarans and heavy.

https://www.worldcruising.com/arc/ar...ntresults.aspx

[Cayuse51]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

not really, Lagoons are quite fast and regulary well performing at the ARC, despite they are condomarans and heavy.

https://www.worldcruising.com/arc/ar...ntresults.aspx

Those results are calculated using an ARC made up correction handicap to make the Lagoons competitive in the results. Boat for boat sailing and which boat arrives first, there is no comparison.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Cayuse51

Those results are calculated using an ARC made up correction handicap to make the Lagoons competitive in the results. Boat for boat sailing and which boat arrives first, there is no comparison.

Just look at the time of arrival for the passage in the overall results:

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...%20Results.pdf

One day difference in a 18 Day passage is not that bad, its around 5..8% slower only.

[Go Wildcats]

I'm searching for max payloads, Balance lists it on their specifications, but so far, I believe they are the only ones. Any idea for these - I'm just gathering data for curiosity sake:

Boat S/D Ratio - Standard (lite Ship)
Antares 44GS 21.76
Balance 451 23.76
Balance 526 28.81
Balance 620 30.67
Lagoon 410 19.33
Lagoon 420 18.64
Lagoon 440 22.27
Lagoon 450F 20.18
Lagoon 46 22.25
Lagoon 50 21.52
Lagoon 52 21.12
Lagoon 560 22.35
Lagoon 620 24.46
Leopard 45 20.89
Leopard 50 22.44
Leopard 58 21.22
Outremer 45 28.16
Outremer 4X 32.73
Outremer 51 33.11
Outremer 5X 33.11
Xquisit 5X 18.12

The idea of loading a boat with items cruisers would typically have and then calculating a "SA/D - loaded" would help for visualizing. But I realize each boat will be impacted differently. Not to mention that some boats come standard with what other boats call options. Xquisit comes to mind, and their SA/D shows that (heavier than other 50'ers and with ~300SqFt less sail. The Outremer's carry slightly less sail, but are 55% of the weight compared to similar LOA. They seem to shave pounds (kg's) everywhere, even down to using a shower curtain in lieu of glass doors. Any way, if you happen to know the max payloads of the listed boats, please message me.

Thanks, Rob.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Just look at the time of arrival for the passage in the overall results:

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...%20Results.pdf

One day difference in a 18 Day passage is not that bad, its around 5..8% slower only.

The results of a rally, not a race, are meaningless and have no common starting point or common baseline in terms of sails used, size of crew, watchkeeping or even motor usage.

If lagoons were 'fast' they'd be entered in actual races, not rallies, like the Caribbean 600 and feature in the results. They aren't because they're not fast.

That's completely fine, however, because they're not designed for that. They're still great boats that meet their design brief.

[css145hs]

Originally Posted by Fishpants

I’m always amazed at the detail of so many responses- often greater than I had needed! Thanks to all for the replies.

As to “performance cats”, where do you think new Seawinds sit on the scale? I’ve read that they do sail well, better than many others, but is that just marketing hype? I’ve only seen the 1160 up close, but didn’t have a chance to go out on her. But owners were 2 years into a global trip and had nothing but good things to say about the boat. I’m intrigued by the new 1260...

The seawinds are great boats. All their models sit above the FP/lagoon variety, performance wise and build quality. I almost bought one. The 1160 lite and 1190 sport are even quite sporty, and depending on your intended application could be great fits. The 1260 would make a good cruising boat that ssails well, the 1600 even more so. Outremers are more lean at similar lengths, but seawind has a much more versatile range. Both have good resale value. For living aboard, the seawinds are still among my favorite boat. The layout of the 1160/1190/1260 is great.

[css145hs]

Originally Posted by Go Wildcats

I'm searching for max payloads, Balance lists it on their specifications, but so far, I believe they are the only ones. Any idea for these - I'm just gathering data for curiosity sake:

The idea of loading a boat with items cruisers would typically have and then calculating a "SA/D - loaded" would help for visualizing. But I realize each boat will be impacted differently. Not to mention that some boats come standard with what other boats call options. Xquisit comes to mind, and their SA/D shows that (heavier than other 50'ers and with ~300SqFt less sail. The Outremer's carry slightly less sail, but are 55% of the weight compared to similar LOA. They seem to shave pounds (kg's) everywhere, even down to using a shower curtain in lieu of glass doors. Any way, if you happen to know the max payloads of the listed boats, please message me.

Thanks, Rob.

This was eye opening when getting my boat designed. You get to see more of the actual engineering work. My hull came with 4 possible DWL and displacements. The boat is engineered for the highest, max displacement. Never exceed that. It’s crazy high (relatively). Each of the other DWLs is 2” lower than the previous. The main DWL is the 2nd lowest displacement, you could probably cruise at this. The lowest is basically race trim, and the 2nd highest is fully loaded for cruising for more like a family. I don’t know how you’d even hit the max displacement. The point is, I wish manufacturers were more transparent with this. The quoted DWL is likely just one of these numbers, to fit a market segment and story, it’s likely not the max. If you can get the real hydrostatics, it makes it very clear where the limits are, how the hull width changes at different displacements. You’ll sometimes hear people quoting an immersion rate (500lbs/cm etc), however it’s not a static number, it’s only valid at a given displacement. However, it does give a general idea. My DWLs were over a 8” range (20cm). You can imagine how wide of a displacement range that yields. I’d have to look it up to be sure but I think it allowed for like 50% of the boats weight to be added on as payload to reach the max. Of course it’s not like the boat is instantly unsafe at the max, even those iso standards are based on safety factors and other estimates, so the further you stay below it the better. Similarly, even at the max displacement it would sail circles around a heavier boat. Don’t over think it start from a good place/boat and only keep what you need aboard. You’ll be good.

[Svan]

I prefer to go the other way, unloading a loaded cat. I am down one air conditioner and diesel genset and she sails so much better.

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by tp12

The results of a rally, not a race, are meaningless and have no common starting point or common baseline in terms of sails used, size of crew, watchkeeping or even motor usage.

If lagoons were 'fast' they'd be entered in actual races, not rallies, like the Caribbean 600 and feature in the results. They aren't because they're not fast.

That's completely fine, however, because they're not designed for that. They're still great boats that meet their design brief.

That's the problem; there are too many other factors in a rally or even a long distance race - who goes north, who goes to the Cape Verdes, who has the wind.....Lagoons have many positive attributes. Sailing fast boat for boat against Outremers or other performance cats is not one of them.


Cheers,

[Go Wildcats]

How much more equipment does a production cat (eg Lagoon 450) cruiser add verse a fast cat (Outremer 45) cruiser? Let's assume the cruisers want to be at the same level of comfort. I'm just curious what amount is added for curiosity sake. Does a production cat come with more comforts from the factory and thusly require less to be added? Someone stated that Outremer says a genset is too much for the outremer to have. True?

[Training Wheels]

“Comfort” is completely subjective.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Go Wildcats

How much more equipment does a production cat (eg Lagoon 450) cruiser add verse a fast cat (Outremer 45) cruiser? Let's assume the cruisers want to be at the same level of comfort. I'm just curious what amount is added for curiosity sake. Does a production cat come with more comforts from the factory and thusly require less to be added? Someone stated that Outremer says a genset is too much for the outremer to have. True?

How do you quantify comfort? To many cruisers, just the space of a catamaran would be a big thing.

For others, particularly if you spend a lot of time in marinas, or if you don't want to move with the seasons, air conditioning or heating might be crucial.

Even with gensets, there's a huge range of sizes. Any boat can carry a Honda or similar. There are quite lightweight and compact diesel built in types in the 5kva range.

Do you need 4 double cabins, 4 heads, 4 showers?

Or is your idea of comfort getting into an anchorage sooner, getting the good spots, spending less time out at sea?

[Dsanduril]

A whole lot depends on crew size. A performance cat of moderate size may be at your load limit with a crew of 4 and all their stuff, along with the provisions, water, etc. for that same crew.

Sail the same boat with a crew of two and a couple of SCUBA tanks and a small compressor barely match the missing crew, much less all of their paraphernalia.

Loading down any multihull negates some of their performance, you just have to decide what you want to load with and how much you're willing to give up in performance. Until you get to the danger point in overloading it's all personal choice and compromise.